can we have fpc's doc in chm format?

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can we have fpc's doc in chm format?

Bee-6
Can we have fpc's doc in chm format? It's easier to navigate and search
compare to other formats. :)

-Bee-

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Re: can we have fpc's doc in chm format?

Michael Van Canneyt


On Sun, 2 Dec 2007, Bisma Jayadi wrote:

> Can we have fpc's doc in chm format? It's easier to navigate and search
> compare to other formats. :)

The reference material: If you complete the chm backend of fpdoc, yes.
The manuals: definitely out.

But I don't see how CHM is better than PDF. PDF offers all that CHM offers,
plus well-formatted printed output.

Michael.
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Re: can we have fpc's doc in chm format?

Bee-6
> The reference material: If you complete the chm backend of fpdoc, yes.
> The manuals: definitely out.

Actually, the HTML is all fine. I just don't like to always back and forth
between TOC and the content due its single page nature. It'd be better if
the layout is change to 2 page/frame. Left frame for the TOC and the right
pane for the content.

> But I don't see how CHM is better than PDF. PDF offers all that CHM offers,
> plus well-formatted printed output.

Every format has its best and worst. If PDF is SO good, how can people think
about other alternative formats? ;) No need to discuss more about this. :)

-Bee-

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Re: can we have fpc's doc in chm format?

Vincent Snijders
In reply to this post by Michael Van Canneyt
Michael Van Canneyt schreef:
>
> On Sun, 2 Dec 2007, Bisma Jayadi wrote:
>
>> Can we have fpc's doc in chm format? It's easier to navigate and search
>> compare to other formats. :)
>
> The reference material: If you complete the chm backend of fpdoc, yes.
> The manuals: definitely out.
>

I once made a chm from the html files, but the index generated by the
help compiler was horrible.

Vincent
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Re: can we have fpc's doc in chm format?

John Coppens
In reply to this post by Michael Van Canneyt
On Sun, 2 Dec 2007 17:25:16 +0100 (CET)
Michael Van Canneyt <[hidden email]> wrote:

> But I don't see how CHM is better than PDF. PDF offers all that CHM
> offers, plus well-formatted printed output.

In my case, I have the impression that CHM is much lighter than PDF
(which is logical considering much simplified graphical formatting). Also
I like that the characters are in a set that I choose. And normally, I try
to resist printing docs anyway.

John
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Re: can we have fpc's doc in chm format?

adrian_m
In reply to this post by Michael Van Canneyt
On Dec 2, 2007 6:25 PM, Michael Van Canneyt <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On Sun, 2 Dec 2007, Bisma Jayadi wrote:
>
> > Can we have fpc's doc in chm format? It's easier to navigate and search
> > compare to other formats. :)
>
> The reference material: If you complete the chm backend of fpdoc, yes.
> The manuals: definitely out.
>
> But I don't see how CHM is better than PDF. PDF offers all that CHM offers,
> plus well-formatted printed output.

PDFs are great for printing , but when reading them on-screen the
page-oriented-ness
is a little awkward .

Probably the people who are asking for CHM docs are hoping to experience better
search capabilities , although the CHM format itself might not guarantee it .

Also , it would be nice to be able to copy-paste procedure names and
source code examples
from the docs .


The truly painful experience with the fpc docs is finding a
class/procedure that is
performing a certain function and that you haven't used before and
that you are not
even sure it exists .  The functionality is fragmented into units and
the navigation
links requires an advanced understanding about one can expect to find in each
unit : before reaching the reference page of a procedure you need to
know its exact
name or at least the unit is belongs to .

For instance :  some string-related procedures are in the System unit, some in
StrUtils , and God knows where else.  I am sure that there is some
logic (and/or heritage)
in separating them that way, but it's difficult to hunt down all those
procedures and
functions  throughout the RTL reference manual  without proper search and
browsing capabilities .


Cheers,
Adrian Maier
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Re: can we have fpc's doc in chm format?

Michael Van Canneyt


On Mon, 3 Dec 2007, Adrian Maier wrote:

> Also , it would be nice to be able to copy-paste procedure names and
> source code examples
> from the docs .

This can be done with PDF as well.

>
>
> The truly painful experience with the fpc docs is finding a
> class/procedure that is
> performing a certain function and that you haven't used before and
> that you are not
> even sure it exists .  The functionality is fragmented into units and
> the navigation
> links requires an advanced understanding about one can expect to find in each
> unit : before reaching the reference page of a procedure you need to
> know its exact
> name or at least the unit is belongs to .

In the next release, I hope to have a search engine included in the docs.
I found one, written in FPC, so that is perfect ! (ioda or something)

Michael.
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Re: can we have fpc's doc in chm format?

Graeme Geldenhuys-2
In reply to this post by adrian_m
On 03/12/2007, Adrian Maier <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Probably the people who are asking for CHM docs are hoping to experience better
> search capabilities , although the CHM format itself might not guarantee it .

fpdoc does support searching, but you need to have your own search
engine (backend) hooked up.  It's actually mentioned in the
documentation, just search for it. ;-) I had a look at this a few
months back, because I think searching the Class documentation for any
project is very important.

I'll search my email archive for the name of that search engine
backend.  All I needed to do was reformat some files fpdoc already
generates and save it in a format the search engine expects. It would
have been a very simple process - not sure why I haven't done it yet.


Regards,
  - Graeme -


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Re: can we have fpc's doc in chm format?

adrian_m
In reply to this post by Michael Van Canneyt
On Dec 3, 2007 1:04 PM, Michael Van Canneyt <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On Mon, 3 Dec 2007, Adrian Maier wrote:
>
> > Also , it would be nice to be able to copy-paste procedure names and
> > source code examples
> > from the docs .
>
> This can be done with PDF as well.

What pdf viewer are you using?  I can't do it on Linux  with xpdf or
kghostview.

> > The truly painful experience with the fpc docs is finding a
> > class/procedure that is
> > performing a certain function and that you haven't used before and
> > that you are not
> > even sure it exists .  The functionality is fragmented into units and
> > the navigation
> > links requires an advanced understanding about one can expect to find in each
> > unit : before reaching the reference page of a procedure you need to
> > know its exact
> > name or at least the unit is belongs to .
>
> In the next release, I hope to have a search engine included in the docs.
> I found one, written in FPC, so that is perfect ! (ioda or something)

Great news !

Any chances to have better navigation in the online HTML docs ?   I
mean :  a better presentation of what the units contain , without
being forced to click N times until getting to the list of
"Procedures" or "Classes" .   As i was explaining :  finding items is
painful unless you already know the unit .

It could help  if it were possible to search for keywords  only in the
procedure/function/class descriptions  ( mailing list results are
usually overwhelming and make me prefer trying to google  and ask on
the mailing list ) .


--
Adrian Maier
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Re: can we have fpc's doc in chm format?

Graeme Geldenhuys-2
In reply to this post by Graeme Geldenhuys-2
On 03/12/2007, Graeme Geldenhuys <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I'll search my email archive for the name of that search engine
> backend.  All I needed to do was reformat some files fpdoc already


Google's GMail is awesome!!!   The search engine is called, Tipue.
It's implemented in JavaScript and is pretty easy to add to fpdoc
output.

http://sourceforge.net/projects/tipue/


Regards,
  - Graeme -


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Re: can we have fpc's doc in chm format?

Graeme Geldenhuys-2
In reply to this post by adrian_m
On 03/12/2007, Adrian Maier <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > Also , it would be nice to be able to copy-paste procedure names and
> > > source code examples
> > > from the docs .
> >
> > This can be done with PDF as well.
>
> What pdf viewer are you using?  I can't do it on Linux  with xpdf or
> kghostview.


I use 'evince' which is the standard PDF viewer with Ubuntu. I can
copy any text I want.  As far as I remember 'xpdf' also allows coping
text, but it uses the old 'middle mouse button' to paste the text.
Some older X11 apps don't support the usual KDE or Gnome copy and
paste style.  Simple highlight the text with the mouse, open gEdit and
Middle click (mouse wheel click) in gEdit.


Regards,
  - Graeme -


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Re: can we have fpc's doc in chm format?

Graeme Geldenhuys-2
In reply to this post by Graeme Geldenhuys-2
On 03/12/2007, Graeme Geldenhuys <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Google's GMail is awesome!!!   The search engine is called, Tipue.
> It's implemented in JavaScript and is pretty easy to add to fpdoc
> output.
>
> http://sourceforge.net/projects/tipue/
>


Here is a sample search page of Tipue working with the fpGUI docs.
The tip_data.js file is what needs to be generated.

If you specify     --html-search=../search.html        in the fpdoc
command line, it will add a Search link in the header of your
generated HTML files.


Regards,
  - Graeme -


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Re: can we have fpc's doc in chm format?

adrian_m
In reply to this post by Graeme Geldenhuys-2
On Dec 3, 2007 1:41 PM, Graeme Geldenhuys <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 03/12/2007, Adrian Maier <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > What pdf viewer are you using?  I can't do it on Linux  with xpdf or
> > kghostview.
>
> I use 'evince' which is the standard PDF viewer with Ubuntu. I can
> copy any text I want.  As far as I remember 'xpdf' also allows coping
> text, but it uses the old 'middle mouse button' to paste the text.
> Some older X11 apps don't support the usual KDE or Gnome copy and
> paste style.  Simple highlight the text with the mouse, open gEdit and
> Middle click (mouse wheel click) in gEdit.

I'm still unable to to copy text in xpdf.   But I've just installed
evince and copying text
works .  Thanks for telling me about it , Graeme !


--
Adrian Maier
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Re: can we have fpc's doc in chm format?

Attila Kinali
In reply to this post by adrian_m
On Mon, 3 Dec 2007 13:35:31 +0200
"Adrian Maier" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> > This can be done with PDF as well.
>
> What pdf viewer are you using?  I can't do it on Linux  with xpdf or
> kghostview.

xpdf: like on any other x11 app: left mouse button
to copy, middle mouse button to paste. It's a little
bit akward that you mark a block instead of consecutive
text, but one gets used to that. Acrocread does that better.

*ghostview: i don't think it's possible to c&p
text from ghostview based pdf viewers, as ghostview
(comming from ps) does not have a notion of text
within a file but of arbitrarily positioned glyphs.

                        Attila Kinali

--
Praised are the Fountains of Shelieth, the silver harp of the waters,
But blest in my name forever this stream that stanched my thirst!
                         -- Deed of Morred
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Re: can we have fpc's doc in chm format?

Michael Van Canneyt
In reply to this post by adrian_m


On Mon, 3 Dec 2007, Adrian Maier wrote:

> On Dec 3, 2007 1:04 PM, Michael Van Canneyt <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > On Mon, 3 Dec 2007, Adrian Maier wrote:
> >
> > > Also , it would be nice to be able to copy-paste procedure names and
> > > source code examples
> > > from the docs .
> >
> > This can be done with PDF as well.
>
> What pdf viewer are you using?  I can't do it on Linux  with xpdf or
> kghostview.

I use acroread.

>
> > > The truly painful experience with the fpc docs is finding a
> > > class/procedure that is
> > > performing a certain function and that you haven't used before and
> > > that you are not
> > > even sure it exists .  The functionality is fragmented into units and
> > > the navigation
> > > links requires an advanced understanding about one can expect to find in each
> > > unit : before reaching the reference page of a procedure you need to
> > > know its exact
> > > name or at least the unit is belongs to .
> >
> > In the next release, I hope to have a search engine included in the docs.
> > I found one, written in FPC, so that is perfect ! (ioda or something)
>
> Great news !
>
> Any chances to have better navigation in the online HTML docs ?   I
> mean :  a better presentation of what the units contain , without
> being forced to click N times until getting to the list of
> "Procedures" or "Classes" .   As i was explaining :  finding items is
> painful unless you already know the unit .

I'm not planning to change the structure of the pages. At most an index
page per unit will be added.

But I expect the search engine to solve this kind of issue.

Michael.
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Re: can we have fpc's doc in chm format?

Michael Van Canneyt
In reply to this post by Graeme Geldenhuys-2


On Mon, 3 Dec 2007, Graeme Geldenhuys wrote:

> On 03/12/2007, Graeme Geldenhuys <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > I'll search my email archive for the name of that search engine
> > backend.  All I needed to do was reformat some files fpdoc already
>
>
> Google's GMail is awesome!!!   The search engine is called, Tipue.
> It's implemented in JavaScript and is pretty easy to add to fpdoc
> output.
>
> http://sourceforge.net/projects/tipue/

Before I found ioda, I looked at this too but it's a very limited
engine.

It's only plus is that it works in JavaScript, but I suspect
that this can be remedied for ioda as well, as long as you can
read the data files.

Michael.
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Re: can we have fpc's doc in chm format?

Michael Van Canneyt
In reply to this post by Graeme Geldenhuys-2


On Mon, 3 Dec 2007, Graeme Geldenhuys wrote:

> On 03/12/2007, Graeme Geldenhuys <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Google's GMail is awesome!!!   The search engine is called, Tipue.
> > It's implemented in JavaScript and is pretty easy to add to fpdoc
> > output.
> >
> > http://sourceforge.net/projects/tipue/
> >
>
>
> Here is a sample search page of Tipue working with the fpGUI docs.
> The tip_data.js file is what needs to be generated.
>
> If you specify     --html-search=../search.html        in the fpdoc
> command line, it will add a Search link in the header of your
> generated HTML files.

Ahem. Can you imagine what would happen if I would create a full-text
search data result file for the FPC docs ?? You could go and have a
cup of coffee while your browser tries to parse the thing...

... Only to find it stopped with an 'out of memory' error.
So it had better be a damn good cup of coffee :-)

Michael.
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Re: can we have fpc's doc in chm format?

Graeme Geldenhuys-2
On 03/12/2007, Michael Van Canneyt <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> ... Only to find it stopped with an 'out of memory' error.
> So it had better be a damn good cup of coffee :-)

My thoughts exactly.  At least you will have an excuse to get a cup of
coffee.  ;-)
fpGUI is a lot smaller so should still be possible.  None the less, I
do agree - Tipue will only be viable for smaller projects.


Regards,
  - Graeme -


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Re: can we have fpc's doc in chm format?

Tomas Hajny
In reply to this post by adrian_m
Adrian Maier wrote:
> On Dec 3, 2007 1:04 PM, Michael Van Canneyt <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>> On Mon, 3 Dec 2007, Adrian Maier wrote:
 .
 .

>> > The truly painful experience with the fpc docs is finding a
>> > class/procedure that is
>> > performing a certain function and that you haven't used before and
>> > that you are not
>> > even sure it exists .  The functionality is fragmented into units and
>> > the navigation
>> > links requires an advanced understanding about one can expect to find
>> in each
>> > unit : before reaching the reference page of a procedure you need to
>> > know its exact
>> > name or at least the unit is belongs to .
>>
>> In the next release, I hope to have a search engine included in the
>> docs.
>> I found one, written in FPC, so that is perfect ! (ioda or something)
>
> Great news !
>
> Any chances to have better navigation in the online HTML docs ?   I
> mean :  a better presentation of what the units contain , without
> being forced to click N times until getting to the list of
> "Procedures" or "Classes" .   As i was explaining :  finding items is
> painful unless you already know the unit .
 .
 .

Some time ago I started some kind of "unit categorization"
(http://wiki.freepascal.org/Unit_categorization) aiming to help with
finding the right unit for a particular task. Obviously, it's just a start
and doesn't include anything from FCL, packages, etc., but it may still
help new users to find their way around.

I'm not sure whether this found its way into the docs, though.

Tomas

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Re: can we have fpc's doc in chm format?

Graeme Geldenhuys-2
In reply to this post by Graeme Geldenhuys-2
On 03/12/2007, Graeme Geldenhuys <[hidden email]> wrote:
> fpGUI is a lot smaller so should still be possible.  None the less, I
> do agree - Tipue will only be viable for smaller projects.
>

Just for interest sake...  I generated full text search with fpDoc &
Tipue for the fpGUI project.
That's if anybody wanted to see how Tipue works for smaller scale projects.

  http://opensoft.homeip.net/fpgui/docs/index.html


I wrote a very simplistic parser to generate the tip_data.js file. It
runs through the *.cnt files that fpdoc generates and then reads out
the Short Description from the HTML files.  I have 9000+ html pages
and it took under a second to generate the Tipue data file.


Regards,
  - Graeme -


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