another fpc RAD: MSEide

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another fpc RAD: MSEide

Den Jean
Hi,

Movie:
=====
For those who did not try MSEide yet, here is a movie teaser.
http://users.pandora.be/Jan.Van.hijfte/qtforfpc/mse01.html

Wiki:
===
http://www.freepascal.org/wiki/index.php/MSEide_&_MSEgui

Can someone provide a more appropriate entry in the wiki
for this page. I cannot modify all pages, but did not find an
appropriate page either.
Perhaps there should be some page: fpc related projects.

kind regards,

Den Jean
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Re: another fpc RAD: MSEide

Matt Emson
MSEgui has a distinct advantage over Lazarus. It compiles under Delphi. Just
tried it. Fiddled with one or two lines in the code, but I got the IDE to
compile and run and then built a small hello world app that also ran. Pretty
impressive really.

M


> Hi,
>
> Movie:
> =====
> For those who did not try MSEide yet, here is a movie teaser.
> http://users.pandora.be/Jan.Van.hijfte/qtforfpc/mse01.html
>
> Wiki:
> ===
> http://www.freepascal.org/wiki/index.php/MSEide_&_MSEgui
>
> Can someone provide a more appropriate entry in the wiki
> for this page. I cannot modify all pages, but did not find an
> appropriate page either.
> Perhaps there should be some page: fpc related projects.
>
> kind regards,
>
> Den Jean

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Re: another fpc RAD: MSEide

L505


> MSEgui has a distinct advantage over Lazarus. It compiles under Delphi. Just
> tried it. Fiddled with one or two lines in the code, but I got the IDE to
> compile and run and then built a small hello world app that also ran. Pretty
> impressive really.

And the exe's/elf's it generates are reasonable in size.  Going to check it out
today, again.

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Re: another fpc RAD: MSEide

Florian Klämpfl
L505 wrote:
>
>> MSEgui has a distinct advantage over Lazarus. It compiles under Delphi. Just
>> tried it. Fiddled with one or two lines in the code, but I got the IDE to
>> compile and run and then built a small hello world app that also ran. Pretty
>> impressive really.
>
> And the exe's/elf's it generates are reasonable in size.  Going to check it out
> today, again.

That's always the trade off. MSEgui is something really different from lazarus:
Lazarus/lcl is vcl compatible and uses the native widget set. MSEgui uses a
complete pascal only approach: no compatibility, no default gui elements from
the OS, this leads to little overhead, high speed and small executables. Both
approaches can't be combined unfortunately.
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Re: another fpc RAD: MSEide

Micha Nelissen
In reply to this post by L505
L505 wrote:
>> MSEgui has a distinct advantage over Lazarus. It compiles under Delphi. Just
>> tried it. Fiddled with one or two lines in the code, but I got the IDE to
>> compile and run and then built a small hello world app that also ran. Pretty
>> impressive really.
>
> And the exe's/elf's it generates are reasonable in size.  Going to check it out
> today, again.

Smaller than FPC ? That shouldn't differ too much, I think.

I don't really see why ability to compile with Delphi is so big an
advantage ("distinct") ?

Micha

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Re: another fpc RAD: MSEide

Vincent Snijders
Micha Nelissen schreef:

> L505 wrote:
>>> MSEgui has a distinct advantage over Lazarus. It compiles under
>>> Delphi. Just
>>> tried it. Fiddled with one or two lines in the code, but I got the
>>> IDE to
>>> compile and run and then built a small hello world app that also ran.
>>> Pretty
>>> impressive really.
>>
>> And the exe's/elf's it generates are reasonable in size.  Going to
>> check it out
>> today, again.
>
> Smaller than FPC ? That shouldn't differ too much, I think.
>
> I don't really see why ability to compile with Delphi is so big an
> advantage ("distinct") ?
>

It can see the advantages and they should not be diminished:
- having different compilers to confirm or exclude a compiler bug.
- The cycle, code, compile, run, debug, code is quicker on Delphi, (if you are on
windows)
- I haven't used Delphi lately, but I think the debugger is better than what Lazarus
offers. For example stepping through Lazarus code is slow, if the Call Stack view is
opened, because the Lazarus listview doesn't implement BeginUpdate and EndUpdate
optimally.

Vincent
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Re: another fpc RAD: MSEide

Martin Schreiber
In reply to this post by Micha Nelissen
On Wednesday 19 April 2006 09.42, Micha Nelissen wrote:
>
> Smaller than FPC ? That shouldn't differ too much, I think.
>
From public.mseide-msegui.talk (news.dxmachine.com):
"
Some more exe sizes on linux, MSEide+MSEgui V0.8a, FPC V2.0.3:

mseide without DB support:                ziped
Kylix 3                           1.6 MB  672 KB
FPC with smart linked units (-CX) 1.8 MB  708 KB
FPC without smart linked units    2.1 MB  777 KB

mseide with DB support:
FPC with smart linked units (-CX) 2.2 MB  832 KB
FPC without smart linked units    2.4 MB  899 KB
"
and
"
I got the following exe sizes with apps/demo/demo.pas:

compiled with Delphi 7: 400kB
compiled with Kylix 3:  495kB
FPC with -O2Gp3 without smartlinked libraries:
FPC win32               600kB
FPC linux               940kB
"
Compile time with Delphi/Kylix is much faster.

Martin
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Re: another fpc RAD: MSEide

Micha Nelissen
In reply to this post by Vincent Snijders
Vincent Snijders wrote:
> It can see the advantages and they should not be diminished:
> - having different compilers to confirm or exclude a compiler bug.

Debugging FPC by using Lazarus is stupid and overkill IMHO ;-).

> - The cycle, code, compile, run, debug, code is quicker on Delphi, (if
> you are on windows)

True, but we have the command line and crosscompiling from linux :-)

> - I haven't used Delphi lately, but I think the debugger is better than
> what Lazarus offers. For example stepping through Lazarus code is slow,
> if the Call Stack view is opened, because the Lazarus listview doesn't
> implement BeginUpdate and EndUpdate optimally.

That's a GUI bug in Lazarus then. Having used BCB and GDB, I think the
Delphi (7) debugger sucks or I am doing something wrong. When walking up
the stack, how can I see the contents of variables of those frames ? I
always get an error when trying to view the variable, contents not
available or so (I believe this works in BCB, but that's a long time
ago, and I'm sure it works in GDB). GDB also has its weak points though;
but nothing that Lazarus would (theoretically) not be able to "hide".

Micha

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Re: another fpc RAD: MSEide

Micha Nelissen
In reply to this post by Martin Schreiber
Martin Schreiber wrote:
> mseide without DB support:                ziped

Are you afraid to draw conclusions?

> Kylix 3                           1.6 MB  672 KB
> FPC with smart linked units (-CX) 1.8 MB  708 KB
> FPC without smart linked units    2.1 MB  777 KB

So 30% if not smartlinking. Acceptable IMHO.

> compiled with Delphi 7: 400kB
> compiled with Kylix 3:  495kB
> FPC with -O2Gp3 without smartlinked libraries:
> FPC win32               600kB
> FPC linux               940kB

So, 50% and 90% respectively? Or what should we compare here? 90% is
quite a lot, agreed.

> Compile time with Delphi/Kylix is much faster.

Again, how much ? Win32 is probably a lot slower, but nevertheless you
should give some reproduceable figures.

Micha

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Re: another fpc RAD: MSEide

Martin Schreiber
On Wednesday 19 April 2006 10.33, Micha Nelissen wrote:
> Martin Schreiber wrote:
> > mseide without DB support:                ziped
>
> Are you afraid to draw conclusions?
>
FPC db units do not compile with Delphi/Kylix, in MSEgui I use FPC db units ->
MSEide with db support can only be compiled with FPC.

> > Kylix 3                           1.6 MB  672 KB
> > FPC with smart linked units (-CX) 1.8 MB  708 KB
> > FPC without smart linked units    2.1 MB  777 KB
>
> So 30% if not smartlinking. Acceptable IMHO.
>
I think also.

> > compiled with Delphi 7: 400kB
> > compiled with Kylix 3:  495kB
> > FPC with -O2Gp3 without smartlinked libraries:
> > FPC win32               600kB
> > FPC linux               940kB
>
> So, 50% and 90% respectively? Or what should we compare here? 90% is
> quite a lot, agreed.
>
Delphi7/Kylix smart linked units FPC 2.0.2 not smart linked units.
My systems crash if I try to build smart linked units with FPC 2.0.2.

> > Compile time with Delphi/Kylix is much faster.
>
> Again, how much ? Win32 is probably a lot slower, but nevertheless you
> should give some reproduceable figures.
>
About factor 5..10.
No problem if you don't need to recompile the hole project in
code-compile-run-debug-code cycle.
Compiling and starting of application in MSEide after modifying a form is
about 2..3 seconds on a Linux AMD XP 3000+, 1GB ram system and FPC 2.0.3.
I have some units in MSEide which let the compiler crash without -B option.

It is not possible to debug projects in MSEide which are compiled with Delphi,
with Kylix it is eventual possible because of stabs debuginfo (I never tried
it).

Martin
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Re: another fpc RAD: MSEide

Matt Emson
In reply to this post by Micha Nelissen
> Smaller than FPC ? That shouldn't differ too much, I think.

Delphi's optimizer is superior to FPC currently. Delphi has another 10 - 15
years and paid developers on top of FPC, so this can be expected, I guess.
And the compiler is just sooo fast.

Delphi 2005 gives 1.48MB for the mside.exe uncompressed. That is probably
without DB support. I just complied the main unit with no changes other than
to a couple of properties.

> I don't really see why ability to compile with Delphi is so big an
> advantage ("distinct") ?

For all the reasons others have stated.

Also, Delphi's debugger alone makes it worthwile. If you don't like the
debugger, fine. However do not blame your dislike of the Delphi debugger on
your personal debugging preferences. I've been using Delphi commercially
since 1998, or there abouts, and the debugger is perfectly acceptable. The
debugger is the thing I always miss in other IDE's, especially VS.NET 2003.

M

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Re: another fpc RAD: MSEide

Michael Van Canneyt


On Wed, 19 Apr 2006, Matt Emson wrote:

>> Smaller than FPC ? That shouldn't differ too much, I think.
>
> Delphi's optimizer is superior to FPC currently. Delphi has another 10 - 15
> years and paid developers on top of FPC, so this can be expected, I guess.
> And the compiler is just sooo fast.

The FPC _compiler_ is just as fast.

The linking stage is the problem; It's currently being worked on.

You could make the FPC compiler even faster by not letting it release
memory, as delphi does... Just compile & debug several times in Delphi:
Memory usage goes up with each compile...

Michael.
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Re: another fpc RAD: MSEide

Marco van de Voort
In reply to this post by Vincent Snijders
> Micha Nelissen schreef:
> >
> > Smaller than FPC ? That shouldn't differ too much, I think.
> >
> > I don't really see why ability to compile with Delphi is so big an
> > advantage ("distinct") ?
> >
>
> It can see the advantages and they should not be diminished:
> - having different compilers to confirm or exclude a compiler bug.
> - The cycle, code, compile, run, debug, code is quicker on Delphi, (if you are on
> windows)
> - I haven't used Delphi lately, but I think the debugger is better than what Lazarus
> offers. For example stepping through Lazarus code is slow, if the Call Stack view is
> opened, because the Lazarus listview doesn't implement BeginUpdate and EndUpdate
> optimally.

I don't see why the IDE should delphi compilable for that. It's about the
applications!?!?

(of course, that is indeed a problem with lazarus. the dfm<->lfm and src
conversions should get more bidirectional and reliable for that to work)
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Re: another fpc RAD: MSEide

Florian Klämpfl
In reply to this post by Matt Emson
Matt Emson wrote:
>> Smaller than FPC ? That shouldn't differ too much, I think.
>
> Delphi's optimizer is superior to FPC currently.

2.0.2 and Delphi are equal on average.

> Delphi has another 10 - 15
> years and paid developers on top of FPC, so this can be expected, I guess.
> And the compiler is just sooo fast.

No, it's because it's technology of the 90s and no significant further
development of the compiler has been done. No 64 bit support so far, the
optimizer is only reasonable good for a pentium (just compare other commercial
compilers with Delphi).

>
> Delphi 2005 gives 1.48MB for the mside.exe uncompressed. That is probably
> without DB support. I just complied the main unit with no changes other than
> to a couple of properties.
>
>> I don't really see why ability to compile with Delphi is so big an
>> advantage ("distinct") ?
>
> For all the reasons others have stated.
>
> Also, Delphi's debugger alone makes it worthwile. If you don't like the
> debugger, fine. However do not blame your dislike of the Delphi debugger on
> your personal debugging preferences. I've been using Delphi commercially
> since 1998, or there abouts, and the debugger is perfectly acceptable. The
> debugger is the thing I always miss in other IDE's, especially VS.NET 2003.
>
> M
>
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Re: another fpc RAD: MSEide

Florian Klämpfl
In reply to this post by Micha Nelissen
>> Compile time with Delphi/Kylix is much faster.
>
> Again, how much ? Win32 is probably a lot slower, but nevertheless you
> should give some reproduceable figures.

As discussed in another thread, with FPC 2.x, we put a lot of effort into a
maintainable and portable compiler because of rare time. Just give you an
example: I ported fpc 2.1.1 to win64 within the last 4 weeks besides my daily
job, preparing a PhD and looking for a new appartment and preparing moving. I
think this gives a good impression how maintainable and portable fpc got with 2.x.
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Re: another fpc RAD: MSEide

Marco van de Voort
In reply to this post by Martin Schreiber
> > Smaller than FPC ? That shouldn't differ too much, I think.
> >
> From public.mseide-msegui.talk (news.dxmachine.com):
> "
> Some more exe sizes on linux, MSEide+MSEgui V0.8a, FPC V2.0.3:
>
> mseide without DB support:                ziped
> Kylix 3                           1.6 MB  672 KB
> FPC with smart linked units (-CX) 1.8 MB  708 KB
> FPC without smart linked units    2.1 MB  777 KB

This could be caused by Kylix being able to some
more advanced types of smartlinking due to own linker. (e.g. vtable
optimization)

If your binaries use libc, recompiling FPC with dFPC_USE_LIBC might bring
-the size down a further 10-40k.

But I think these size differences are irrelevant and peanuts. I don't see
what advantage 200k brings.

> Compile time with Delphi/Kylix is much faster.

True, and much more important. This and debugging will remain for some time.
Internal linker will improve this somewhat mid-long term.

On win32 the internal linker really matters a lot. Still slower than Delphi,
but a full magnitude better.
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Re: another fpc RAD: MSEide

Jonas Maebe-2
In reply to this post by Martin Schreiber

On 19 apr 2006, at 11:30, Martin Schreiber wrote:

> Compiling and starting of application in MSEide after modifying a  
> form is
> about 2..3 seconds on a Linux AMD XP 3000+, 1GB ram system and FPC  
> 2.0.3.
> I have some units in MSEide which let the compiler crash without -B  
> option.

I've now merged the fix for the property loading crash from 2.1.1 to  
2.0.3. I didn't do it before because I wasn't sure at first whether  
it wouldn't have any bad side-effects, and later forgot to merge it.


Jonas
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Re: another fpc RAD: MSEide

Michael Van Canneyt
In reply to this post by Marco van de Voort


On Wed, 19 Apr 2006, Marco van de Voort wrote:

>> Micha Nelissen schreef:
>>>
>>> Smaller than FPC ? That shouldn't differ too much, I think.
>>>
>>> I don't really see why ability to compile with Delphi is so big an
>>> advantage ("distinct") ?
>>>
>>
>> It can see the advantages and they should not be diminished:
>> - having different compilers to confirm or exclude a compiler bug.
>> - The cycle, code, compile, run, debug, code is quicker on Delphi, (if you are on
>> windows)
>> - I haven't used Delphi lately, but I think the debugger is better than what Lazarus
>> offers. For example stepping through Lazarus code is slow, if the Call Stack view is
>> opened, because the Lazarus listview doesn't implement BeginUpdate and EndUpdate
>> optimally.
>
> I don't see why the IDE should delphi compilable for that. It's about the
> applications!?!?
>
> (of course, that is indeed a problem with lazarus. the dfm<->lfm and src
> conversions should get more bidirectional and reliable for that to work)

This argument is based on a (IMHO) common misconception of the Lazarus
environment:

It assumes that one and the same project should be switchable at any time
between Delphi and Lazarus.

This is not the intention of Delphi (obviously) nor of Lazarus.

Lazarus tries to be compatible to Delphi in the sense that you should be
able to take a vanilla Delphi program, and compile it - with reasonable
modifications - in Lazarus, and then possibly continue development in
Lazarus.

Any tools that Lazarus provides to convert .DFM to .lfm are one-way, and
intended to help in porting a Delphi application to Lazarus, 1 time.

Providing 2-way conversions requires help from both sides, otherwise it
will never work transparant. Somehow I don't think the Delphi devels
will assist in making the conversion easier.

So, if you want 2-way compatibility: you are on your own.

Look at OpenOffice vs MS-Office. The conversions are always far from
perfect, and you always get a message that 'Some formatting may be lost'
etc. And OpenOffice is the only one doing the conversion...

Michael.
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Re: another fpc RAD: MSEide

Martin Schreiber
In reply to this post by Marco van de Voort
On Wednesday 19 April 2006 11.55, Marco van de Voort wrote:
>
> This could be caused by Kylix being able to some
> more advanced types of smartlinking due to own linker. (e.g. vtable
> optimization)
>
And I suspect RTTI info.

> If your binaries use libc, recompiling FPC with dFPC_USE_LIBC might bring
> -the size down a further 10-40k.
>
> But I think these size differences are irrelevant and peanuts. I don't see
> what advantage 200k brings.
>
Agreed.
And if compressed the difference is only some per cent .

Martin
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Re[2]: another fpc RAD: MSEide

Пётр Косаревский
In reply to this post by Martin Schreiber
I do neither use Lazarus, nor MSEide, but if executable size is really important, there is something called KOL (I didn't use it either). As I have read, it's currently compilable by FPC.

Speaking of bigger applications, I don't see much difference between 6 or 30 Mb executables...
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