Who said Pascal isn't popular

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Who said Pascal isn't popular

Graeme Geldenhuys-2
I came across this link by chance. Wow, I never knew there was that
many Pascal Compiler implementations. A lot!

http://pascaland.org/pascall.htm

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Re: Who said Pascal isn't popular

Ralf A. Quint
At 03:25 PM 10/11/2009, Graeme Geldenhuys wrote:
>I came across this link by chance. Wow, I never knew there was that
>many Pascal Compiler implementations. A lot!
>
>http://pascaland.org/pascall.htm

Well, reduce it to the compilers that are still maintained, and the
list is far less impressive... :-(

Ralf

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Re: Who said Pascal isn't popular

Mark Emerson
Remember, Pascal is merely a TEACHING language, unsuitable for commercial
software development, which is why we have C.  :)

On Sunday 11 October 2009 05:00:04 pm Ralf A. Quint wrote:

> At 03:25 PM 10/11/2009, Graeme Geldenhuys wrote:
> >I came across this link by chance. Wow, I never knew there was that
> >many Pascal Compiler implementations. A lot!
> >
> >http://pascaland.org/pascall.htm
>
> Well, reduce it to the compilers that are still maintained, and the
> list is far less impressive... :-(
>
> Ralf
>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: Who said Pascal isn't popular

Ralf A. Quint
At 05:27 PM 10/11/2009, Mark Emerson wrote:
>Remember, Pascal is merely a TEACHING language, unsuitable for commercial
>software development, which is why we have C.  :)

Yeah, right... >:-}

Ralf ;-)  

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Re: Who said Pascal isn't popular

Jürgen Hestermann
In reply to this post by Mark Emerson
> Remember, Pascal is merely a TEACHING language, unsuitable for commercial
> software development, which is why we have C.  :)

And why should that be the case? What are the outstanding feature of C
that make it so supperiour? It's illogical and hard to maintain syntax?
Or is it just that it was available for free on all unix systems?
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Re: Who said Pascal isn't popular

Rainer Stratmann
Am Montag, 12. Oktober 2009 11:02 schrieb Jürgen Hestermann:
> > Remember, Pascal is merely a TEACHING language, unsuitable for commercial
> > software development, which is why we have C.  :)
>
> And why should that be the case? What are the outstanding feature of C
> that make it so supperiour? It's illogical and hard to maintain syntax?
> Or is it just that it was available for free on all unix systems?

Yes, it is available everywhere.
And it is easier to copy unix code then.

Remember that it is still not easy to come to freepascal.
You have to configure a debian testing system and apt-get lazarus and so on...
Nearly nowhere the lazarus package is preinstalled.
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Re: Who said Pascal isn't popular

leledumbo
Administrator
> Remember, Pascal is merely a TEACHING language, unsuitable for commercial
> software development, which is why we have C.  :)

That's what I'm going to change. I've told my friends and collegemates about Pascal superiority (suitable for any programming needs, GUI, WebApps, Server, etc.) and they don't know about it at all because what they know is what their teachers or lecturers say, (without any further research, of course), and becomes a doctrine that makes Pascal look bad in their eyes.

> Yes, it is available everywhere.
> And it is easier to copy unix code then.

And harder to port it to Windows without Unix (POSIX?) environment emulation (including headers, etc.)

> You have to configure a debian testing system and apt-get lazarus and so on...

you don't need lazarus just to use fpc, and I don't need that debian testing system on my kubuntu.

> Nearly nowhere the lazarus package is preinstalled.

other popular languages are often don't come preinstalled as well.
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Re: Who said Pascal isn't popular

Rainer Stratmann
Am Montag, 12. Oktober 2009 12:05 schrieb leledumbo:
> you don't need lazarus just to use fpc, and I don't need that debian
> testing system on my kubuntu.

Which editor do you use?
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Re: Who said Pascal isn't popular

Mattias Gaertner
In reply to this post by Rainer Stratmann
Zitat von Rainer Stratmann <[hidden email]>:

> Am Montag, 12. Oktober 2009 11:02 schrieb Jürgen Hestermann:
>> > Remember, Pascal is merely a TEACHING language, unsuitable for commercial
>> > software development, which is why we have C.  :)
>>
>> And why should that be the case? What are the outstanding feature of C
>> that make it so supperiour? It's illogical and hard to maintain syntax?
>> Or is it just that it was available for free on all unix systems?
>
> Yes, it is available everywhere.
> And it is easier to copy unix code then.
>
> Remember that it is still not easy to come to freepascal.
> You have to configure a debian testing system and apt-get lazarus  
> and so on...
> Nearly nowhere the lazarus package is preinstalled.

Standard user distributions do not install any development software.
This is how linux distros work and is the same for every devel  
software, not only lazarus.

Some distros allow to create your own custom install CD/DVD.
This is used for network installs or for pools.

Maybe it is possible write a linux "installer", which analyzes your  
system and downloads and installs all needed packages.

Mattias

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Re: Who said Pascal isn't popular

Graeme Geldenhuys-2
In reply to this post by Rainer Stratmann
2009/10/12 Rainer Stratmann <[hidden email]>:
>
> Which editor do you use?

I'm not the one you replied to, but I can answer based on my
experience. I never use APT for FPC or Lazarus because they update
packages to slowly. I work directly from the Git mirror repositories.

* If I'm at work or home, I use Lazarus IDE.
* If I remote access another PC, I use mcedit (built-in Midnight
Commander's editor) or Free Pascal's Text IDE or sometimes even gEdit.
* When in a pinch, I will use vi (but then I am seriously disparate).



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Re: Who said Pascal isn't popular

Jürgen Hestermann
In reply to this post by Rainer Stratmann
> Yes, it is available everywhere.
> And it is easier to copy unix code then.
> Remember that it is still not easy to come to freepascal.
> You have to configure a debian testing system and apt-get lazarus and so on...
> Nearly nowhere the lazarus package is preinstalled.

Yes, these are the reasons for having C in the first place. But it is
not because of the beauty (stict logic) and the features of the
language. Just the opposite: C is popular *even though* it is an awful
concept.


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Re: Who said Pascal isn't popular

Marco van de Voort
In reply to this post by Rainer Stratmann
In our previous episode, Rainer Stratmann said:
> > > Remember, Pascal is merely a TEACHING language, unsuitable for commercial
> > > software development, which is why we have C.  :)
> >
> > And why should that be the case? What are the outstanding feature of C
> > that make it so supperiour? It's illogical and hard to maintain syntax?
> > Or is it just that it was available for free on all unix systems?
>
> Yes, it is available everywhere.

Try compiling some Unix C code on Windows.

Give me Free Pascal any time :-)

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Re: Who said Pascal isn't popular

Graeme Geldenhuys-2
2009/10/12 Marco van de Voort <[hidden email]>:
>>
>> Yes, it is available everywhere.
>
> Try compiling some Unix C code on Windows.
>
> Give me Free Pascal any time :-)

+1

...and Try compiling some Unix C code on Unix/Linux/etc. I always
battle. Give me Free Pascal too!   :-)


PS:
Wow, did this message thread take a turn. I was simply impressed by
the "unknown to me" amount of Pascal compilers over the years. I only
knew about Turbo Pascal and Virtual Pascal for OS/2, in my younger
years at school.


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Re: Who said Pascal isn't popular

Rainer Stratmann
In reply to this post by Jürgen Hestermann
Am Montag, 12. Oktober 2009 12:31 schrieb Jürgen Hestermann:

> > Yes, it is available everywhere.
> > And it is easier to copy unix code then.
> > Remember that it is still not easy to come to freepascal.
> > You have to configure a debian testing system and apt-get lazarus and so
> > on... Nearly nowhere the lazarus package is preinstalled.
>
> Yes, these are the reasons for having C in the first place. But it is
> not because of the beauty (stict logic) and the features of the
> language. Just the opposite: C is popular *even though* it is an awful
> concept.

It is like the video cassettes.
Betamax and Video2000 were the better quality,
but VHS was the most popular cassette.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_2000
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formatkrieg_(Videorekorder)
(sorry in german language)
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Re: Who said Pascal isn't popular

Jürgen Hestermann
>> C is popular *even though* it is an awful concept.
> It is like the video cassettes.
> Betamax and Video2000 were the better quality,
> but VHS was the most popular cassette.

Yes, sadly this is true (same with Microsoft pressing one awfull OS
after the other into the market). Not always the best wins. Good
marketing is important. The mass does *not* look behind the scene but
follows what others do or what the marketing tells them.


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Re: Who said Pascal isn't popular

Gustavo Enrique Jimenez
In reply to this post by Rainer Stratmann
2009/10/12 Rainer Stratmann <[hidden email]>:

> Am Montag, 12. Oktober 2009 11:02 schrieb Jürgen Hestermann:
>> > Remember, Pascal is merely a TEACHING language, unsuitable for commercial
>> > software development, which is why we have C.  :)
>>
>> And why should that be the case? What are the outstanding feature of C
>> that make it so supperiour? It's illogical and hard to maintain syntax?
>> Or is it just that it was available for free on all unix systems?
>
> Yes, it is available everywhere.
> And it is easier to copy unix code then.
>
> Remember that it is still not easy to come to freepascal.
> You have to configure a debian testing system and apt-get lazarus and so on...
> Nearly nowhere the lazarus package is preinstalled.

You don't need Debian Testing. My system is Debian Stable (i386) since
2001/2002. Never have had a serious problem installing
Lazarus/Freepascal.

Gustavo
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Re: Who said Pascal isn't popular

Rainer Stratmann
Am Montag, 12. Oktober 2009 16:21 schrieb Gustavo Enrique Jimenez:

> 2009/10/12 Rainer Stratmann <[hidden email]>:
> > Am Montag, 12. Oktober 2009 11:02 schrieb Jürgen Hestermann:
> >> > Remember, Pascal is merely a TEACHING language, unsuitable for
> >> > commercial software development, which is why we have C.  :)
> >>
> >> And why should that be the case? What are the outstanding feature of C
> >> that make it so supperiour? It's illogical and hard to maintain syntax?
> >> Or is it just that it was available for free on all unix systems?
> >
> > Yes, it is available everywhere.
> > And it is easier to copy unix code then.
> >
> > Remember that it is still not easy to come to freepascal.
> > You have to configure a debian testing system and apt-get lazarus and so
> > on... Nearly nowhere the lazarus package is preinstalled.
>
> You don't need Debian Testing. My system is Debian Stable (i386) since
> 2001/2002. Never have had a serious problem installing
> Lazarus/Freepascal.

How do you install Lazarus/Freepascal with apt or else?
I am a friend of userfriendly software...
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Re: Who said Pascal isn't popular

Vinzent Höfler
In reply to this post by Jürgen Hestermann
"Jürgen Hestermann" <[hidden email]>:

> And why should that be the case? What are the outstanding feature of C
> that make it so supperiour? It's illogical and hard to maintain syntax?

Its "Compile anything, crash everywhere." interface. :P


Vinzent.
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Re: Who said Pascal isn't popular

Gustavo Enrique Jimenez
In reply to this post by Rainer Stratmann
2009/10/12 Rainer Stratmann <[hidden email]>:

> Am Montag, 12. Oktober 2009 16:21 schrieb Gustavo Enrique Jimenez:
>> 2009/10/12 Rainer Stratmann <[hidden email]>:
>> > Am Montag, 12. Oktober 2009 11:02 schrieb Jürgen Hestermann:
>> >> > Remember, Pascal is merely a TEACHING language, unsuitable for
>> >> > commercial software development, which is why we have C.  :)
>> >>
>> >> And why should that be the case? What are the outstanding feature of C
>> >> that make it so supperiour? It's illogical and hard to maintain syntax?
>> >> Or is it just that it was available for free on all unix systems?
>> >
>> > Yes, it is available everywhere.
>> > And it is easier to copy unix code then.
>> >
>> > Remember that it is still not easy to come to freepascal.
>> > You have to configure a debian testing system and apt-get lazarus and so
>> > on... Nearly nowhere the lazarus package is preinstalled.
>>
>> You don't need Debian Testing. My system is Debian Stable (i386) since
>> 2001/2002. Never have had a serious problem installing
>> Lazarus/Freepascal.
>
> How do you install Lazarus/Freepascal with apt or else?
> I am a friend of userfriendly software...


Download fpc-2.2.4-3.i386.deb.tar and lazarus_0.9.28-0.i386.deb.tar

tar -xf *.tar
dpkg -i *.deb      <- as root

Gustavo
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Re: Who said Pascal isn't popular

Bugzilla from secludedsage@gmail.com
Hmm, currently I am also learning Oberon.

No any language requires an IDE. I use vim. Others might use emacs.
These are enough. What we need is a simple editor (if you like, GNU
nano or simply "cat > 1.pas" is okay) and a compiler. They can make
the world, although not that efficiently.

Not the best always win. It is the truth. About why Pascal "lost" the
war (In the accent of some people. I highly doubt it.) is complex.
IMHO, on the hand, the Bell Lab wrote Unix in C and C was then
"binded" to the OS. On the other hand, Mr. Wirth created a lot of new
languages in the following years: Pascal(<1970), Modula(1975),
Modula-2(1979), Oberon(1987), Oberon-2(1991), etc. The style of all
the following languages differ a lot from that of Pascal, while Modula
and Oberon differ relatively little, which makes Modula and Oberon a
little hard to be spread.

I don't agree with the idea that "BEGIN...END" determines the failure
of Pascal, as syntax completion is for that. Both "BEGIN...END" and
"{...}" are finished in the same time if they were done by computer.
On the contrary, it is part of the way of Pascal being elegant.

2009/10/13 Gustavo Enrique Jimenez <[hidden email]>:

> 2009/10/12 Rainer Stratmann <[hidden email]>:
>> Am Montag, 12. Oktober 2009 16:21 schrieb Gustavo Enrique Jimenez:
>>> 2009/10/12 Rainer Stratmann <[hidden email]>:
>>> > Am Montag, 12. Oktober 2009 11:02 schrieb Jürgen Hestermann:
>>> >> > Remember, Pascal is merely a TEACHING language, unsuitable for
>>> >> > commercial software development, which is why we have C.  :)
>>> >>
>>> >> And why should that be the case? What are the outstanding feature of C
>>> >> that make it so supperiour? It's illogical and hard to maintain syntax?
>>> >> Or is it just that it was available for free on all unix systems?
>>> >
>>> > Yes, it is available everywhere.
>>> > And it is easier to copy unix code then.
>>> >
>>> > Remember that it is still not easy to come to freepascal.
>>> > You have to configure a debian testing system and apt-get lazarus and so
>>> > on... Nearly nowhere the lazarus package is preinstalled.
>>>
>>> You don't need Debian Testing. My system is Debian Stable (i386) since
>>> 2001/2002. Never have had a serious problem installing
>>> Lazarus/Freepascal.
>>
>> How do you install Lazarus/Freepascal with apt or else?
>> I am a friend of userfriendly software...
>
>
> Download fpc-2.2.4-3.i386.deb.tar and lazarus_0.9.28-0.i386.deb.tar
>
> tar -xf *.tar
> dpkg -i *.deb      <- as root
>
> Gustavo
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