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Re: Bls: WebAssembly Target

Michael Van Canneyt


On Thu, 13 Apr 2017, Mr Bee via fpc-pascal wrote:

>
>
>
>
> Pada Sabtu, 18 Maret 2017 0:54, Michael Van Canneyt <[hidden email]> menulis:
>
>
> You'll design a web app in the lazarus IDE (or Delphi IDE, for that matter).
> The app will be compiled to Javascript.
>
>
> Current thinking is that that there will be 2 "modes":
> - "Free" Mode, where the CSS will determine the actual runtime look.
>   The IDE will just create the DOM structure.
> - "Exact" mode, where the app will look in the browser as it looks in the IDE.
>   the necessary CSS will be generated for this.
>
>
> In both modes of course the IDE and object inspector will be used to create
> event handlers and whatnot in Pascal…
>
>
> But this is all still under heavy development.
>
>
> Seriously? Where can we try or test this? This is really a great news! It reminds me of Morfik. :)
Morfik has been, since day 1, the inspiration for this.

> Hope the development will continue.

It is.
The compiler is progressing well. Language is pretty much complete on
a D7 level. Currently work is done on implementing RTTI.

Michael.
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Bls: Bls: WebAssembly Target

Free Pascal - General mailing list
Pada Kamis, 13 April 2017 13:22, Michael Van Canneyt <[hidden email]> menulis:



> Seriously? Where can we try or test this? This is really a great news! It reminds me of Morfik. :)

Morfik has been, since day 1, the inspiration for this.

I knew it! ^_^

> Hope the development will continue.

It is.
The compiler is progressing well. Language is pretty much complete on
a D7 level. Currently work is done on implementing RTTI.

O, c'mon Michael… please release it. Even if it isn't fully ready, as beta or preview or whatever. We'd like to try it out! I can't wait to test it. :)

Regards,

–Mr Bee


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Re: WebAssembly Target

Michael Schnell
In reply to this post by noreply
On 12.04.2017 15:49, [hidden email] wrote:
>
> Why run webgl through javascript if you could just make something like
> a flash plugin object

We once did a decent application using Pascal at the server and Flash
(Action Script) at the client site. Works very nicely. But Action Script
is Adobe propriety and even Adobe says that Flash is depreciated. So at
the moment HTML5 and Java script is the way to go, but WebAssembly
should recreate Action Script versatility performance in a more
"Standard" way.

-Michael

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Re: WebAssembly Target

Jürgen Hestermann
Am 2017-04-13 um 10:20 schrieb Michael Schnell:
 > So at the moment HTML5 and Java script is the way to go, but WebAssembly should recreate Action Script versatility performance in a more "Standard" way.

I hate Java Script and use NoScript to block it.
I can't understand why scripting is needed for a web page.

Once I could do even my home banking without scripting
but meanwhile scripting spreads over all the internet.
For security reasons this is a desaster and
I never found anything useful with scripting.

The most annoying thing with scripting is, that you potentially
download arbitrary code with every click.
A browser should only display information but never execute
arbitrary code from a web site.

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Re: WebAssembly Target

Michael Van Canneyt


On Fri, 14 Apr 2017, Jürgen Hestermann wrote:

> Am 2017-04-13 um 10:20 schrieb Michael Schnell:
> > So at the moment HTML5 and Java script is the way to go, but WebAssembly
> should recreate Action Script versatility performance in a more "Standard"
> way.
>
> I hate Java Script and use NoScript to block it.
> I can't understand why scripting is needed for a web page.

Simple: to improve the user experience.
Things like google calendar would be impossible without it.

Michael.
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Re: *** GMX Spamverdacht *** Re: WebAssembly Target

Jürgen Hestermann
Am 2017-04-14 um 11:03 schrieb Michael Van Canneyt:
 > On Fri, 14 Apr 2017, Jürgen Hestermann wrote:
 >> Am 2017-04-13 um 10:20 schrieb Michael Schnell:
 >> > So at the moment HTML5 and Java script is the way to go, but WebAssembly should recreate Action Script versatility performance in a more "Standard" way.
 >> I hate Java Script and use NoScript to block it.
 >> I can't understand why scripting is needed for a web page.
 >
 > Simple: to improve the user experience. Things like google calendar would be impossible without it.

Why is it scripting needed to display a calendar?

I am not against improving HTML but allowing arbitrary code
on a web site is of no use (for the user) IMO.
It's just a security hole.

Code can be executed on the server if needed.
On the clients only what the HTML-language provides shoud be allowed.
And executing arbitrary code should not be part of this language.

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Re: *** GMX Spamverdacht *** Re: WebAssembly Target

Michael Van Canneyt


On Fri, 14 Apr 2017, Jürgen Hestermann wrote:

> Am 2017-04-14 um 11:03 schrieb Michael Van Canneyt:
> > On Fri, 14 Apr 2017, Jürgen Hestermann wrote:
> >> Am 2017-04-13 um 10:20 schrieb Michael Schnell:
> >> > So at the moment HTML5 and Java script is the way to go, but
> WebAssembly should recreate Action Script versatility performance in a more
> "Standard" way.
> >> I hate Java Script and use NoScript to block it.
> >> I can't understand why scripting is needed for a web page.
> >
> > Simple: to improve the user experience. Things like google calendar would
> be impossible without it.
>
> Why is it scripting needed to display a calendar?
To display a popup menu, for example.

Or completion when typing in an edit: when you invite someone, it's handy
when calendar suggests the contact name.

Michael.
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Re: *** GMX Spamverdacht *** Re: *** GMX Spamverdacht *** Re: WebAssembly Target

Jürgen Hestermann
Am 2017-04-14 um 13:53 schrieb Michael Van Canneyt:
 >> Why is it scripting needed to display a calendar?
 > To display a popup menu, for example.
 > Or completion when typing in an edit: when you invite someone, it's handy
 > when calendar suggests the contact name.

I doubt that you can do this only when allowing the execution of
arbitrary code (although I don't know very much about current HTML standards).

In the end Scripting is like downloading executable files
with each and every click on a web page.
I do not want this.
I want to keep control about what is executed on my computer.

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Re: *** GMX Spamverdacht *** Re: *** GMX Spamverdacht *** Re: WebAssembly Target

Michael Van Canneyt


On Fri, 14 Apr 2017, Jürgen Hestermann wrote:

> Am 2017-04-14 um 13:53 schrieb Michael Van Canneyt:
> >> Why is it scripting needed to display a calendar?
> > To display a popup menu, for example.
> > Or completion when typing in an edit: when you invite someone, it's handy
> > when calendar suggests the contact name.
>
> I doubt that you can do this only when allowing the execution of
> arbitrary code (although I don't know very much about current HTML
> standards).
>
> In the end Scripting is like downloading executable files
> with each and every click on a web page.
> I do not want this.
> I want to keep control about what is executed on my computer.
So you are running an open source OS ?

Michael.
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Re: *** GMX Spamverdacht *** Re: *** GMX Spamverdacht *** Re: *** GMX Spamverdacht *** Re: WebAssembly Target

Jürgen Hestermann
Am 2017-04-14 um 15:12 schrieb Michael Van Canneyt:
 >> I want to keep control about what is executed on my computer.
 > So you are running an open source OS ?

Unfortunately not (yet).
I am working on getting rid of windows
but some programs not available on Linux
prevented me from doing this step for now.

Nevertheless, the point is not to just run
open source programs (and OS's).
I install a new OS very seldom
and these OS's are under public observation.
We know quite a lot about Windows and what it is doing
in the background so I am no so much concerned about it (yet).
I disabled updates so I don't get unexpected changes in the background.
And I use Win 7 and 8.1 but not 10.

Same applies to programs.
I cannot wade through all the code even if it's open source.
I have to rely on the fact that popular programs are under
public ovservation and that unexpected behaviour will be known soon.

For web pages this is totally different.
With scripting you install and run completely unknown code
hundreds of times a day. An infected or otherwise malicious
web page will not become visible at once because they can
change very often and there are many of them.
Therefor I use NoScript to prevent me from such code.
90% of these web pages using scripting are crap anyway.
Scripting is mainly used to annoy the user with add popups etc.

Serious web pages don't need scripting IMO.
They should provide information and that is possible without it.

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Re: *** GMX Spamverdacht *** Re: *** GMX Spamverdacht *** Re: WebAssembly Target

Ryan Joseph-3
In reply to this post by Jürgen Hestermann

> On Apr 14, 2017, at 7:26 PM, Jürgen Hestermann <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I doubt that you can do this only when allowing the execution of
> arbitrary code (although I don't know very much about current HTML standards).

I think you’re confusing Java for JavaScript. JavaScript doesn’t allow execution of arbitrary code and as far as I know it’s still the only language that can manipulate the DOM on the browser to perform actions on the client side like changing the properties of HTML elements.

Regards,
        Ryan Joseph

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Re: *** GMX Spamverdacht *** Re: *** GMX Spamverdacht *** Re: WebAssembly Target

Jürgen Hestermann
Am 2017-04-15 um 03:54 schrieb Ryan Joseph:
 > I think you’re confusing Java for JavaScript. JavaScript doesn’t allow execution of arbitrary code and as far as I know it’s still the only language that can manipulate the DOM on the browser to perform actions on the client side like changing the properties of HTML elements.

Well, it's not exactly the same as running native programs but nearby.
For example, see https://www.veracode.com/security/javascript-security .

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Re: WebAssembly Target

Michael Schnell
In reply to this post by Jürgen Hestermann
On 14.04.2017 10:41, Jürgen Hestermann wrote:
> I can't understand why scripting is needed for a web page.
Regarding the discussion here, the term is "Rich Internet Application"
("RIA") -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_Internet_application

Here, a server based application (e.g. done in Pascal / fpc / Lazarus)
shows a GUI within a browser. The connection between the Browser and the
program being done via a standard HTTP server.

-Michael
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Re: *** GMX Spamverdacht *** Re: WebAssembly Target

Michael Schnell
In reply to this post by Jürgen Hestermann

On 14.04.2017 12:56, Jürgen Hestermann wrote:
> Why is it scripting needed to display a calendar?
Most obviously: (OK. I do know that there is a timed reload instruction
in HTML, that I malevolently ignore in this post, but it would be a PITA
to use same in a more complex example, as it would reload everything
instead of updating e.g. just a single number, as often needed in a RIA
GUI.)

You keep the Browser Window open and at midnight the sheet for the new
day should automatically be displayed.

HTTP/HTML can't do that, It's strictly unidirectional request->answer.
(Which in fact is completely silly, but we need to live with that).

So Java script can do the necessary polling.

-Michael


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Re: *** GMX Spamverdacht *** Re: WebAssembly Target

Graeme Geldenhuys-6
In reply to this post by Michael Van Canneyt
On 2017-04-14 12:53, Michael Van Canneyt wrote:
>> Why is it scripting needed to display a calendar?
>
> To display a popup menu, for example.

But apparently you don’t need JavaScript for that either. Here is a blog
post (dated 5 years ago) where the person proved just that - you can use
HTML and CSS alone to accomplish popup menus and modal dialogs without
JavaScript. ;-) Web developers just chose not to do so. Makes you wonder
what else is possible (we all know Web Developers like to take shortcuts
and live by copy-and-paste coding styles).


  Popup windows without JavaScript
  http://eichefam.net/2011/12/21/popup-windows-without-javascript/


Regards,
  Graeme

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Re: WebAssembly Target

Graeme Geldenhuys-6
In reply to this post by Jürgen Hestermann
On 2017-04-14 09:41, Jürgen Hestermann wrote:
> I hate Java Script and use NoScript to block it.

You don't need a browser add-on for that. Simply go to (Firefox)
about:config and search for JavaScript. Double click the
"javascript.enabled" preference and it will toggle between enabled
true/false. There used to be days (years ago) when this setting was
directly available in the Preferences dialog. Good old times. ;-)

Regards,
  Graeme

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Re: WebAssembly Target

Graeme Geldenhuys-6
In reply to this post by Jürgen Hestermann
On 2017-04-14 18:56, Jürgen Hestermann wrote:
> Therefor I use NoScript to prevent me from such code.
> 90% of these web pages using scripting are crap anyway.

It's also nice to see how fast web pages load if no JavaScript is
enabled (magnitudes faster). Also most web Ads stop working too. A nice
bonus. :)

Regards,
  Graeme

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Re: *** GMX Spamverdacht *** Re: WebAssembly Target

Michael Van Canneyt
In reply to this post by Graeme Geldenhuys-6


On Thu, 20 Apr 2017, Graeme Geldenhuys wrote:

> On 2017-04-14 12:53, Michael Van Canneyt wrote:
>>> Why is it scripting needed to display a calendar?
>>
>> To display a popup menu, for example.
>
> But apparently you don’t need JavaScript for that either. Here is a blog
> post (dated 5 years ago) where the person proved just that - you can use
> HTML and CSS alone to accomplish popup menus and modal dialogs without
> JavaScript. ;-) Web developers just chose not to do so. Makes you wonder
> what else is possible (we all know Web Developers like to take shortcuts
> and live by copy-and-paste coding styles).
That was only possible after CSS had been 'updated' to include some dynamic effects.

And CSS will not help you for example with autocompletion in an edit box.

The people fighting javascript in the browser are fighting a reargard battle.
It will only get worse. As long as there is no acceptable alternative for
the browser, this will continue to worsen...

Michael.
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Re: *** GMX Spamverdacht *** Re: WebAssembly Target

Graeme Geldenhuys-6
On 2017-04-20 09:40, Michael Van Canneyt wrote:
> The people fighting javascript in the browser are fighting a reargard battle.
> It will only get worse.

Indeed, I was simply pointing out that _some_ functionality is possible
without JavaScript, but the majority of what we consider "the standard
web" seems to require JavaScript - if you like it or not.

Regards,
  Graeme

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Re: WebAssembly Target

Jürgen Hestermann
In reply to this post by Graeme Geldenhuys-6
Am 2017-04-20 um 10:25 schrieb Graeme Geldenhuys:
 > On 2017-04-14 09:41, Jürgen Hestermann wrote:
 >> I hate Java Script and use NoScript to block it.
 > You don't need a browser add-on for that. Simply go to (Firefox)
 > about:config and search for JavaScript. Double click the
 > "javascript.enabled" preference and it will toggle between enabled
 > true/false.

But NoScript has comfortable functions do allow scripting
for certain web pages or even only parts of them
in case I am forced to use scripting on "special" cases.
I can do a white-listing this way.
It seems that about:config cannot distinguish between
special web pages.



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