Some features for FPC 3.0?

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Some features for FPC 3.0?

Bee Jay-2
Hi,

Just got an article about new language features from RO's Oxygene language. I think some of them might be good to be (considered and) implemented in FPC v.3.


What do you think? :)

Regards,

--
-Bee-


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Re: Some features for FPC 3.0?

Sven Barth-2

Am 17.02.2015 16:29 schrieb "Bee" <[hidden email]>:
>
> Hi,
>
> Just got an article about new language features from RO's Oxygene language. I think some of them might be good to be (considered and) implemented in FPC v.3.
>
> http://blogs.remobjects.com/blogs/mh/2015/01/28/p7049
>
> What do you think? :)
>

Some features are interesting and are on my own ToDo list (for example tuples). There will however be no roadmap for these features and more importantly they won't be part of 3.0, because that version is currently prepared for release and thus has a feature freeze.

Regards,
Sven


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Re: Some features for FPC 3.0?

silvioprog
On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 1:41 PM, Sven Barth <[hidden email]> wrote:

Am 17.02.2015 16:29 schrieb "Bee" <[hidden email]>:
>
> Hi,
>
> Just got an article about new language features from RO's Oxygene language. I think some of them might be good to be (considered and) implemented in FPC v.3.
>
> http://blogs.remobjects.com/blogs/mh/2015/01/28/p7049
>
> What do you think? :)
>

Some features are interesting and are on my own ToDo list (for example tuples). There will however be no roadmap for these features and more importantly they won't be part of 3.0, because that version is currently prepared for release and thus has a feature freeze.

Regards,
Sven

It would be nice if FPC adopt RC versions. So anyone could do tests just installing it via setup, instead of using GIT / SVN. And Lazarus RCs could be release using this RCs FPCs (e.g: Lazarus-1.4-RC1 has FPC-3.0.0-RC1).

- RCs - every three or six months;
- stable - a year.

--
Silvio Clécio
My public projects - github.com/silvioprog

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Re: Some features for FPC 3.0?

leledumbo
Administrator
> And Lazarus RCs could be release using this RCs FPCs (e.g: Lazarus-1.4-RC1 has FPC-3.0.0-RC1).

I think it's a bad idea to release an RC of Lazarus with RC of FPC, remembering both are separate projects where Lazarus depends on FPC. Independent release where Lazarus depends on latest stable FPC is a good decision already.
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Re: Some features for FPC 3.0?

Mattias Gaertner
In reply to this post by silvioprog
On Tue, 17 Feb 2015 14:25:11 -0300
silvioprog <[hidden email]> wrote:

>[...]
> It would be nice if FPC adopt RC versions. So anyone could do tests just
> installing it via setup, instead of using GIT / SVN. And Lazarus RCs could
> be release using this RCs FPCs (e.g: Lazarus-1.4-RC1 has FPC-3.0.0-RC1).
>
> - RCs - every three or six months;
> - stable - a year.

Are you confusing Minor versions with Release Candidates?

Mattias
 
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Re: Some features for FPC 3.0?

Sven Barth-2
In reply to this post by silvioprog
On 17.02.2015 18:25, silvioprog wrote:

> On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 1:41 PM, Sven Barth <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     Am 17.02.2015 16:29 schrieb "Bee" <[hidden email]
>     <mailto:[hidden email]>>:
>      >
>      > Hi,
>      >
>      > Just got an article about new language features from RO's Oxygene
>     language. I think some of them might be good to be (considered and)
>     implemented in FPC v.3.
>      >
>      > http://blogs.remobjects.com/blogs/mh/2015/01/28/p7049
>      >
>      > What do you think? :)
>      >
>
>     Some features are interesting and are on my own ToDo list (for
>     example tuples). There will however be no roadmap for these features
>     and more importantly they won't be part of 3.0, because that version
>     is currently prepared for release and thus has a feature freeze.
>
>     Regards,
>     Sven
>
> It would be nice if FPC adopt RC versions. So anyone could do tests just
> installing it via setup, instead of using GIT / SVN. And Lazarus RCs
> could be release using this RCs FPCs (e.g: Lazarus-1.4-RC1 has
> FPC-3.0.0-RC1).

We /are/ doing RCs just like we've done in the past. Before 3.0.0 will
be released there will at least be a 3.0.0RC1 and maybe also a 3.0.0RC2.
But it takes time to prepare these and thus RCs are only prepared when a
new release is planned. Everything else would be - simply spoken - a
waste of our time that is better spent improving the compiler, the RTL
and whatever else we have.

Regards,
Sven

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Re: Some features for FPC 3.0?

silvioprog
In reply to this post by leledumbo
On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 2:33 PM, leledumbo <[hidden email]> wrote:
> And Lazarus RCs could be release using this RCs FPCs (e.g: Lazarus-1.4-RC1
has FPC-3.0.0-RC1).

I think it's a bad idea to release an RC of Lazarus with RC of FPC,
remembering both are separate projects where Lazarus depends on FPC.
Independent release where Lazarus depends on latest stable FPC is a good
decision already.

I believe that would be nice a online poll about this. =/

Lazarus community is very large, with several Lazarus and Delphi programmers, then it would be interesting to facilitate they testing of new FPC features, even for a programmer without GIT / SVN knowledge: 'just download a setup/DEB/RPM and enjoy it!'.

Today, if I need to test new features of the compiler, or I acquire knowledge about GIT / SVN / compile from sources, or I use third party solutions (command lines tool, shell scripts, articles, IDEs etc). =(

--
Silvio Clécio
My public projects - github.com/silvioprog

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Re: Some features for FPC 3.0?

silvioprog
In reply to this post by Sven Barth-2
On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 2:49 PM, Sven Barth <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 17.02.2015 18:25, silvioprog wrote:
On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 1:41 PM, Sven Barth <[hidden email]
<mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:

    Am 17.02.2015 16:29 schrieb "Bee" <[hidden email]
    <mailto:[hidden email]>>:
     >
     > Hi,
     >
     > Just got an article about new language features from RO's Oxygene
    language. I think some of them might be good to be (considered and)
    implemented in FPC v.3.
     >
     > http://blogs.remobjects.com/blogs/mh/2015/01/28/p7049
     >
     > What do you think? :)
     >

    Some features are interesting and are on my own ToDo list (for
    example tuples). There will however be no roadmap for these features
    and more importantly they won't be part of 3.0, because that version
    is currently prepared for release and thus has a feature freeze.

    Regards,
    Sven

It would be nice if FPC adopt RC versions. So anyone could do tests just
installing it via setup, instead of using GIT / SVN. And Lazarus RCs
could be release using this RCs FPCs (e.g: Lazarus-1.4-RC1 has
FPC-3.0.0-RC1).

We /are/ doing RCs just like we've done in the past. Before 3.0.0 will be released there will at least be a 3.0.0RC1 and maybe also a 3.0.0RC2. But it takes time to prepare these and thus RCs are only prepared when a new release is planned. Everything else would be - simply spoken - a waste of our time that is better spent improving the compiler, the RTL and whatever else we have.

Regards,
Sven

The problem is that FPC take a lot of time to release new versions. If there was a version (RCs) every six months it would help a lot.

Today I'm 32 years old, and probably I'll see the FPC 3.0 be released when I'm 33 years old. FPC 4.0 -> 40 years old. FPC 5.0 -> I will be already retired. =D

Just suggestions. I follow other programmer tools, and they don't take much time to release new versions, and some of them have fewer programmers that FPC community. =/

--
Silvio Clécio
My public projects - github.com/silvioprog

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Re: Some features for FPC 3.0?

Florian Klaempfl
Am 17.02.2015 um 19:20 schrieb silvioprog:
>
> The problem is that FPC take a lot of time to release new versions. If there was a version (RCs)
> every six months it would help a lot.

The point is: it takes a lot of time to prepare and test the releases and also to coordinate the
efforts.

>
> Today I'm 32 years old, and probably I'll see the FPC 3.0 be released when I'm 33 years old. FPC 4.0
> -> 40 years old. FPC 5.0 -> I will be already retired. =D
>
> Just suggestions. I follow other programmer tools, and they don't take much time to release new
> versions, and some of them have fewer programmers that FPC community. =/

Which of them are multiplatform (~25) and do binary releases?

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Re: Some features for FPC 3.0?

Sven Barth-2
In reply to this post by silvioprog
On 17.02.2015 19:05, silvioprog wrote:

> On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 2:33 PM, leledumbo <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>      > And Lazarus RCs could be release using this RCs FPCs (e.g:
>     Lazarus-1.4-RC1
>     has FPC-3.0.0-RC1).
>
>     I think it's a bad idea to release an RC of Lazarus with RC of FPC,
>     remembering both are separate projects where Lazarus depends on FPC.
>     Independent release where Lazarus depends on latest stable FPC is a good
>     decision already.
>
>
> I believe that would be nice a online poll about this. =/
>
> Lazarus community is very large, with several Lazarus and Delphi
> programmers, then it would be interesting to facilitate they testing of
> new FPC features, even for a programmer without GIT / SVN knowledge:
> 'just download a setup/DEB/RPM and enjoy it!'.
>
> Today, if I need to test new features of the compiler, or I acquire
> knowledge about GIT / SVN / compile from sources, or I use third party
> solutions (command lines tool, shell scripts, articles, IDEs etc). =(

If the snapshots would still be generated you could download Lazarus 1.5
with FPC 3.1.1 without problems. But apparently that stopped, otherwise
they would be here: ftp://freepascal.dfmk.hu/pub/lazarus/snapshots/

Regards,
Sven

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Re: Some features for FPC 3.0?

Sven Barth-2
In reply to this post by silvioprog
On 17.02.2015 19:20, silvioprog wrote:

> On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 2:49 PM, Sven Barth <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     On 17.02.2015 18:25, silvioprog wrote:
>
>         On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 1:41 PM, Sven Barth
>         <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>         <mailto:[hidden email]
>         <mailto:[hidden email]>>> wrote:
>
>              Am 17.02.2015 16:29 schrieb "Bee" <[hidden email]
>         <mailto:[hidden email]>
>              <mailto:[hidden email]
>         <mailto:[hidden email]>>__>:
>               >
>               > Hi,
>               >
>               > Just got an article about new language features from
>         RO's Oxygene
>              language. I think some of them might be good to be
>         (considered and)
>              implemented in FPC v.3.
>               >
>               > http://blogs.remobjects.com/__blogs/mh/2015/01/28/p7049
>         <http://blogs.remobjects.com/blogs/mh/2015/01/28/p7049>
>               >
>               > What do you think? :)
>               >
>
>              Some features are interesting and are on my own ToDo list (for
>              example tuples). There will however be no roadmap for these
>         features
>              and more importantly they won't be part of 3.0, because
>         that version
>              is currently prepared for release and thus has a feature
>         freeze.
>
>              Regards,
>              Sven
>
>         It would be nice if FPC adopt RC versions. So anyone could do
>         tests just
>         installing it via setup, instead of using GIT / SVN. And Lazarus RCs
>         could be release using this RCs FPCs (e.g: Lazarus-1.4-RC1 has
>         FPC-3.0.0-RC1).
>
>
>     We /are/ doing RCs just like we've done in the past. Before 3.0.0
>     will be released there will at least be a 3.0.0RC1 and maybe also a
>     3.0.0RC2. But it takes time to prepare these and thus RCs are only
>     prepared when a new release is planned. Everything else would be -
>     simply spoken - a waste of our time that is better spent improving
>     the compiler, the RTL and whatever else we have.
>
>     Regards,
>     Sven
>
>
> The problem is that FPC take a lot of time to release new versions. If
> there was a version (RCs) every six months it would help a lot.
>
> Today I'm 32 years old, and probably I'll see the FPC 3.0 be released
> when I'm 33 years old. FPC 4.0 -> 40 years old. FPC 5.0 -> I will
> be already retired. =D

You shouldn't bother with version numbers too much. The next version
could have as easily been 2.8 and the one after it 2.10. It's the
features that count... And our normal rythm is a major release around
every two years (currently a bit longer with 3.0, but nobody's perfect...)

> Just suggestions. I follow other programmer tools, and they don't take
> much time to release new versions, and some of them have fewer
> programmers that FPC community. =/

Regards,
Sven
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Re: Some features for FPC 3.0?

silvioprog
In reply to this post by Florian Klaempfl
On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 3:53 PM, Florian Klämpfl <[hidden email]> wrote:
Am 17.02.2015 um 19:20 schrieb silvioprog:
>
> The problem is that FPC take a lot of time to release new versions. If there was a version (RCs)
> every six months it would help a lot.

The point is: it takes a lot of time to prepare and test the releases and also to coordinate the
efforts.

Yes. But I have a question: who does the tests? Only the FPC core and advanced programmers?! =/

My suggestion is to allow any programmer to test the new compiler features. If more people can test it, more chances to release a stable version.
 
> Today I'm 32 years old, and probably I'll see the FPC 3.0 be released when I'm 33 years old. FPC 4.0
> -> 40 years old. FPC 5.0 -> I will be already retired. =D
>
> Just suggestions. I follow other programmer tools, and they don't take much time to release new
> versions, and some of them have fewer programmers that FPC community. =/

Which of them are multiplatform (~25) and do binary releases?

Most of them (Nginx; Chrome; VirtualBox; SMPlayer; WGet; SmartGIT ...). I know that release a new version of a compiler is more complex than a common tool, but it take a long time to release a version of any tool, discourages who is following it.

My suggestion is just: to make easier to test, for any programmer. E.g:

- fpc-3.0.0-beta1/beta2 +/-jan/feb
- fpc-3.0.0-RC1/RC2 +/-may/jun
- fpc-3.0.0-RC3/fpc-3.0.0-stable +/-dec.

Yes, it is hard to do, but IMHO it is necessary.

--
Silvio Clécio
My public projects - github.com/silvioprog

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Re: Some features for FPC 3.0?

silvioprog
In reply to this post by Sven Barth-2
On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 4:11 PM, Sven Barth <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 17.02.2015 19:05, silvioprog wrote:
On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 2:33 PM, leledumbo <[hidden email]
<mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:

     > And Lazarus RCs could be release using this RCs FPCs (e.g:
    Lazarus-1.4-RC1
    has FPC-3.0.0-RC1).

    I think it's a bad idea to release an RC of Lazarus with RC of FPC,
    remembering both are separate projects where Lazarus depends on FPC.
    Independent release where Lazarus depends on latest stable FPC is a good
    decision already.


I believe that would be nice a online poll about this. =/

Lazarus community is very large, with several Lazarus and Delphi
programmers, then it would be interesting to facilitate they testing of
new FPC features, even for a programmer without GIT / SVN knowledge:
'just download a setup/DEB/RPM and enjoy it!'.

Today, if I need to test new features of the compiler, or I acquire
knowledge about GIT / SVN / compile from sources, or I use third party
solutions (command lines tool, shell scripts, articles, IDEs etc). =(

If the snapshots would still be generated you could download Lazarus 1.5 with FPC 3.1.1 without problems. But apparently that stopped, otherwise they would be here: ftp://freepascal.dfmk.hu/pub/lazarus/snapshots/

Regards,
Sven

Yes. Snapshot is very good, but unfortunately it seems stopped. =(

The snapshots could solve the necessity of RCs versions.

--
Silvio Clécio
My public projects - github.com/silvioprog

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Re: Some features for FPC 3.0?

silvioprog
In reply to this post by Sven Barth-2
On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 4:15 PM, Sven Barth <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 17.02.2015 19:20, silvioprog wrote:
On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 2:49 PM, Sven Barth <[hidden email]
<mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:

    On 17.02.2015 18:25, silvioprog wrote:

        On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 1:41 PM, Sven Barth
        <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
        <mailto:[hidden email]__googlemail.com
        <mailto:[hidden email]>>> wrote:

             Am 17.02.2015 16:29 schrieb "Bee" <[hidden email]
        <mailto:[hidden email]>
             <mailto:[hidden email]
        <mailto:[hidden email]>>__>:
              >
              > Hi,
              >
              > Just got an article about new language features from
        RO's Oxygene
             language. I think some of them might be good to be
        (considered and)
             implemented in FPC v.3.
              >
              > http://blogs.remobjects.com/__blogs/mh/2015/01/28/p7049

        <http://blogs.remobjects.com/blogs/mh/2015/01/28/p7049>
              >
              > What do you think? :)
              >

             Some features are interesting and are on my own ToDo list (for
             example tuples). There will however be no roadmap for these
        features
             and more importantly they won't be part of 3.0, because
        that version
             is currently prepared for release and thus has a feature
        freeze.

             Regards,
             Sven

        It would be nice if FPC adopt RC versions. So anyone could do
        tests just
        installing it via setup, instead of using GIT / SVN. And Lazarus RCs
        could be release using this RCs FPCs (e.g: Lazarus-1.4-RC1 has
        FPC-3.0.0-RC1).


    We /are/ doing RCs just like we've done in the past. Before 3.0.0
    will be released there will at least be a 3.0.0RC1 and maybe also a
    3.0.0RC2. But it takes time to prepare these and thus RCs are only
    prepared when a new release is planned. Everything else would be -
    simply spoken - a waste of our time that is better spent improving
    the compiler, the RTL and whatever else we have.

    Regards,
    Sven


The problem is that FPC take a lot of time to release new versions. If
there was a version (RCs) every six months it would help a lot.

Today I'm 32 years old, and probably I'll see the FPC 3.0 be released
when I'm 33 years old. FPC 4.0 -> 40 years old. FPC 5.0 -> I will
be already retired. =D

You shouldn't bother with version numbers too much. The next version could have as easily been 2.8 and the one after it 2.10. It's the features that count... And our normal rythm is a major release around every two years (currently a bit longer with 3.0, but nobody's perfect...)

Just suggestions. I follow other programmer tools, and they don't take
much time to release new versions, and some of them have fewer
programmers that FPC community. =/

Regards,
Sven

Yes, I know. I don't bother with numbers, I bother with the time between releases, that is very long.

The 'revival' of snapshot would be nice to solve the new releases needs.

--
Silvio Clécio
My public projects - github.com/silvioprog

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Re: Some features for FPC 3.0?

Florian Klaempfl
In reply to this post by silvioprog
Am 17.02.2015 um 20:43 schrieb silvioprog:

> On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 3:53 PM, Florian Klämpfl <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     Am 17.02.2015 um 19:20 schrieb silvioprog:
>     >
>     > The problem is that FPC take a lot of time to release new versions. If there was a version (RCs)
>     > every six months it would help a lot.
>
>     The point is: it takes a lot of time to prepare and test the releases and also to coordinate the
>     efforts.
>
>
> Yes. But I have a question: who does the tests? Only the FPC core and advanced programmers?! =/

It is not only doing a few clicks but testing includes also fixing obviously. It can be done by
everybody. Good start are the installer bug reports in the bug tracker.

>
> My suggestion is to allow any programmer to test the new compiler features.

It is not about feature testing but installation testing on different OSes, regression testing on
different OSes etc. and fixing everything (!).

> If more people can test
> it, more chances to release a stable version.
>  
>
>     > Today I'm 32 years old, and probably I'll see the FPC 3.0 be released when I'm 33 years old. FPC 4.0
>     > -> 40 years old. FPC 5.0 -> I will be already retired. =D
>     >
>     > Just suggestions. I follow other programmer tools, and they don't take much time to release new
>     > versions, and some of them have fewer programmers that FPC community. =/
>
>     Which of them are multiplatform (~25) and do binary releases?
>
>
> Most of them (Nginx; Chrome; VirtualBox; SMPlayer; WGet; SmartGIT ...).

I said ~25 platforms :) Not only a handfull plaforms released by big companies.

> I know that release a new
> version of a compiler is more complex than a common tool, but it take a long time to release a
> version of any tool, discourages who is following it.
>
> My suggestion is just: to make easier to test, for any programmer. E.g:
>
> - fpc-3.0.0-beta1/beta2 +/-jan/feb
> - fpc-3.0.0-RC1/RC2 +/-may/jun
> - fpc-3.0.0-RC3/fpc-3.0.0-stable +/-dec.
>
> Yes, it is hard to do, but IMHO it is necessary.
>

Throwing out broken release every two months is not helpfull. Two months is normally the time span
which is needed from the start of the preparation of a release to the final release.
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Re: Some features for FPC 3.0?

Marco van de Voort
In reply to this post by silvioprog
In our previous episode, silvioprog said:
>
> My suggestion is just: to make easier to test, for any programmer. E.g:
>
> - fpc-3.0.0-beta1/beta2 +/-jan/feb
> - fpc-3.0.0-RC1/RC2 +/-may/jun
> - fpc-3.0.0-RC3/fpc-3.0.0-stable +/-dec.
>
> Yes, it is hard to do, but IMHO it is necessary.

I don't think this needs to be done formally. Any users can package
snapshots cq pseudo releases and mark them as test, and release them for
feedback. Then process the feedback, triage it, and communicate that back
upstream.

That's how the really big projects (like distros) work too. Similarly with
the various branches of the Linux kernel, where there are often third party
builders that track a certain target.

So the question should be, when do you think you can release your first
pseudo stable snapshot? Throwing it all back to core is useless, since that
increasing tasks will only slow development more.
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Re: Some features for FPC 3.0?

LacaK
In reply to this post by silvioprog

>
> Yes. Snapshot is very good, but unfortunately it seems stopped. =(
>
+1

> The snapshots could solve the necessity of RCs versions.
+1

-Laco.

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Re: Some features for FPC 3.0?

Michael Schnell
In reply to this post by Bee Jay-2

> What do you think? :)
Multiple times he says stuff like "... Currently on .NET only ... "

So seems that Oxygene now (finally) is available for native Archs (I did
not check which ones).

Sadly, the (IMHO) most interesting extension "parallel loop" is
"Currently on .NET only" :(.

-Michael
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Re: Some features for FPC 3.0?

Sven Barth-2

Am 18.02.2015 11:10 schrieb "Michael Schnell" <[hidden email]>:
>
>
>> What do you think? :)
>
> Multiple times he says stuff like "... Currently on .NET only ... "
>
> So seems that Oxygene now (finally) is available for native Archs (I did not check which ones).

Oxygene is available for .Net, Android (JVM based) and iOS (native).

> Sadly, the (IMHO) most interesting extension "parallel loop" is "Currently on .NET only" :(.

Oxygene relies heavily on the features provided by the underlying runtime (CLR, JVM, ObjC) and thus they can't provide each language feature everywhere.

Regards,
Sven


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Re: Some features for FPC 3.0?

Michael Schnell
On 02/18/2015 11:18 AM, Sven Barth wrote:
> Oxygene relies heavily on the features provided by the underlying
> runtime (CLR, JVM, ObjC) and thus they can't provide each language
> feature everywhere.

... While the beauty of fpc is the true cross-platform design :-)

-Michael
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