Proposal for new Free Pascal logo

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Re: Proposal for new Free Pascal logo

Mark Morgan Lloyd-5
On 02/04/18 09:45, Michael Van Canneyt wrote:

> remove the whiskers.
> As an exercise I have done the job for you. See here:
> http://www.freepascal.org/~michael/pascal_logo2.png
> It's of course better to improve the original, I am not an artist.(I
> even would get rid of more elements, but let's start with this)
> If we're talking branding anyway (a subject I loathe), then a logo
> should represent the company/product group, whatever.
> So, the FPC logo should exhale maturity, strength, prowess,
> self-confidence.
> Hardly things one associates with a kitten.
> FPC is an open-source project dating back to the days the word "open
> source" did not exist. So maturity is important.
> Using marketing/branding talk:Given that I think your version looks like
> a kitten, you will understand that for the reasons explained above, I
> would not want to be "associated" with the logo as you proposed it now.

More to the point, why is a Cheetah logo being discussed in the context
of Free Pascal?

If FPC is to have a logo it should be distinct from Lazarus since it's a
separate project, although ideally they'd be complementary: an expanse
of bushveldt with a couple of trees or similar (but please, no prey
animals).

There's also the important question of whether an image selected as a
logo can be scaled down to be used as an icon.

--
Mark Morgan Lloyd
markMLl .AT. telemetry.co .DOT. uk

[Opinions above are the author's, not those of his employers or colleagues]
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Re: Proposal for new Free Pascal logo

Free Pascal - General mailing list
Mark Morgan Lloyd <[hidden email]> schrieb am Mo., 2. Apr. 2018, 15:13:
On 02/04/18 09:45, Michael Van Canneyt wrote:

> remove the whiskers.
> As an exercise I have done the job for you. See here:
> http://www.freepascal.org/~michael/pascal_logo2.png
> It's of course better to improve the original, I am not an artist.(I
> even would get rid of more elements, but let's start with this)
> If we're talking branding anyway (a subject I loathe), then a logo
> should represent the company/product group, whatever.
> So, the FPC logo should exhale maturity, strength, prowess,
> self-confidence.
> Hardly things one associates with a kitten.
> FPC is an open-source project dating back to the days the word "open
> source" did not exist. So maturity is important.
> Using marketing/branding talk:Given that I think your version looks like
> a kitten, you will understand that for the reasons explained above, I
> would not want to be "associated" with the logo as you proposed it now.

More to the point, why is a Cheetah logo being discussed in the context
of Free Pascal?

Because the cheetah *is* FPC's logo. Why do you think we have that animated cheetah on the FPC parts of the site, but not the Lazarus ones? 

Regards, 
Sven 

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Re: Proposal for new Free Pascal logo

Graeme Geldenhuys-6
In reply to this post by Free Pascal - General mailing list
On 2018-04-02 14:05, Mr Bee via fpc-pascal wrote:
> Perhaps I should make the whiskers a bit less visible? Thinner perhaps?

Exactly what I suggested. Overall, your logo 2nd logo looks "less"
kitten like than the first one. So it is heading in the right direction.

I think almost invisible whiskers is what you should be aiming for. I
think that will help.

Regards,
  Graeme

--
fpGUI Toolkit - a cross-platform GUI toolkit using Free Pascal
http://fpgui.sourceforge.net/

My public PGP key:  http://tinyurl.com/graeme-pgp
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Re: Proposal for new Free Pascal logo

Michael Van Canneyt
In reply to this post by Free Pascal - General mailing list


>
>> Please look at the lazarus logo/icon. It has no whiskers.
>>
>
> I opened lazarus.freepascal.org and I found it's using a paw as its logo.
> Did I miss something? Sorry… I haven't been following Lazarus news for
> quite a while, so I don't know the current logo.

I meant the icon it uses for the IDE.

>> It looks much more like a cheetah, not like a kitten.
>> So you can do something about it: remove the whiskers.
>>
>
> But cheetah do have whiskers. Other people complained the old logo weren't
> really look like a cheetah's face.

Which "old logo" is that ? As far as I know, the only logo FPC has is the
little running cheetah on the website.

>> As an exercise I have done the job for you. See here:
>> http://www.freepascal.org/~michael/pascal_logo2.png
>>
>
> Perhaps I should make the whiskers a bit less visible? Thinner perhaps?

A lot thinner :)

You may also want to experiment with the direction. Upwards, downwards -
horizontal. Drooping...

>> It's of course better to improve the original, I am not an artist.
>> (I even would get rid of more elements, but let's start with this)
>>
>
> I'm not a professional artist either, but I love art and I do drawings for
> a hobby.

The quality of your drawing shows it !

>> If we're talking branding anyway (a subject I loathe), then a logo should
>> represent the company/product group, whatever.
>> So, the FPC logo should exhale maturity, strength, prowess,
>> self-confidence.
>>
>
> Modern logo doesn't necessarily have to represent the WHOLE values of a
> company/product, because a company/product should be dynamic that
> could/should change over time. So is the logo. Take a look at most modern
> logo of big companies today, i.e. Microsoft, Google, Apple, etc. For
> example, I can't see any of Apple's values (both the company and the
> products) got represented on a bitten gray apple fruit. It looks dull, at
> least to me. But the Apple brand image is so powerful and what people think
> about Apple is far from dull. Or… what values can we see from a G shaped
> with four bright colors of Google's logo? It looks like a letter toy. Or
> Linux logo, Swift logo, Kotlin logo, etc.
True, but these logos are not animals.

And here I will stop: as said, branding is not a subject I am particularly
fond of or interested in. I am more interested in the contents of the box
than in the packaging...

> Hardly things one associates with a kitten.
>>
>
> I don't think it looks like a kitten, especially the updated one. But of
> course it looks like a cat, because cheetah is a cat.
>
>
>> FPC is an open-source project dating back to the days the word "open
>> source" did not exist. So maturity is important.
>>
>
> How do we put "maturity" onto a cheetah's face?
At the very least by not making it look like a kitten :)

> Cheetah is known as the
> fastest animal on land. That's what the most recognizable value of a
> cheetah logo. And that's what people should think about (Free) Pascal: it's
> FAST. By making the logo looks more modern, it also brings modernity value.
> So, the new logo should represent something that's fast and modern. And
> cheetah is also cute as a mascot. And cuteness is attracting young people.
> :)

If we're looking for 'My little pony' kind of people, then we should
definitely aim for cute :)

But this is not exactly the kind of people I think we should attract.

A cheetah is not cute. It's a wild animal which will have no compunction
about slashing your throat or ripping your intestines out if you get it
cornered.

I don't see a kitten do this. Well, it may try, but will fail utterly... :)

>
> Using marketing/branding talk:
>> Given that I think your version looks like a kitten, you will understand
>> that for the reasons explained above, I would not want to be "associated"
>> with the logo as you proposed it now.
>
>
> I understand. But I'm not fully agree with you either. The main reason I'm
> proposing new logo for Free Pascal –or even Pascal language in general– is
> I want to bring Pascal to the young people. I want these kids know that
> Pascal today is as modern, fast, and dynamic as other well-known
> programming languages. I hate it when I told them I'm writing a software
> using Pascal and they look at me like I'm a dinosaur. Some of them even
> asking me, "how do you make a web app using Turbo Pascal?" :D
I get this often too, but now I show them pas2js.

But unfortunately, I don't believe a flashy/cute/whatever logo will change
this...

>
> In fact, I'm currently designing of another Pascal logo that's more
> abstract, simpler, friendlier, and more colorful. It's still based on
> cheetah's face though. I'll present it as second alternative, once I'm done
> with it. :)

I am curious :)

And last but definitely not least:

I really do appreciate you taking the time to do this. It's not because I
think differently about what the result should be that I don't appreciate
the effort you put in this, so thank you for that !

Michael.
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Re: Proposal for new Free Pascal logo

Tomas Hajny-2
On Tue, April 3, 2018 09:21, Michael Van Canneyt wrote:

 .
 .
>> But cheetah do have whiskers. Other people complained the old logo
>> weren't really look like a cheetah's face.
>
> Which "old logo" is that ? As far as I know, the only logo FPC has is the
> little running cheetah on the website.

If nothing else, there's the logo used for the IDE on the desktop on Win32
(/install/binw32/fp32.ico in the fpcbuild repository).


 .
 .
>> I'm not a professional artist either, but I love art and I do drawings
>> for a hobby.
>
> The quality of your drawing shows it !

It isn't very clear which part of the previous sentence was referred to in
this response (I assume the latter and that it was thus meant as a
compliment rather than something else, of course).

Tomas


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Re: Proposal for new Free Pascal logo

Michael Van Canneyt


On Tue, 3 Apr 2018, Tomas Hajny wrote:

> On Tue, April 3, 2018 09:21, Michael Van Canneyt wrote:
>
> .
> .
>>> But cheetah do have whiskers. Other people complained the old logo
>>> weren't really look like a cheetah's face.
>>
>> Which "old logo" is that ? As far as I know, the only logo FPC has is the
>> little running cheetah on the website.
>
> If nothing else, there's the logo used for the IDE on the desktop on Win32
> (/install/binw32/fp32.ico in the fpcbuild repository).

Hm. I doubt the term "logo" qualifies, but yes, presumably this is it :)

> .
>>> I'm not a professional artist either, but I love art and I do drawings
>>> for a hobby.
>>
>> The quality of your drawing shows it !
>
> It isn't very clear which part of the previous sentence was referred to in
> this response (I assume the latter and that it was thus meant as a
> compliment rather than something else, of course).

It was definitely meant as a compliment.

I certainly would not be able to create such a professional-looking drawing
or image. My graphical skills are non-existent...

Michael.
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Re: Proposal for new Free Pascal logo

Free Pascal - General mailing list
In reply to this post by Michael Van Canneyt
2018-04-03 14:21 GMT+07:00 Michael Van Canneyt <[hidden email]>:

I meant the icon it uses for the IDE.

 
A lot thinner :)

Let's see what I can do.
 
And here I will stop: as said, branding is not a subject I am particularly
fond of or interested in. I am more interested in the contents of the box
than in the packaging...

Well… if we want Pascal to be known again –as modern programming language, not the old 70's Pascal– then branding is quite important. Especially to young generation. See what Apple has been achiving with Swift within only 4 years. It goes from nothing to the top 10 of most known programming languages of the world today, despite all of its flaws and immaturity. Sure it's also helped by the power of Apple's brand (and marketting), it's still a good achievement nevertheless.
 
If we're looking for 'My little pony' kind of people, then we should
definitely aim for cute :)

But this is not exactly the kind of people I think we should attract.

Well, I'm exactly aiming at young people, the next generation of Pascal developers. I've been seeing FPC's core devs team doesn't change much since the first time I found FPC almost 20 years ago. I mean no offense, but I'm not hoping to see this same team again for the next 20 years. I hope we're starting to see new and younger people joining this great open source project that we love. These young people is our hope to keep Pascal alive in the future.

A cheetah is not cute. It's a wild animal which will have no compunction
about slashing your throat or ripping your intestines out if you get it
cornered.

It's just a logo. It's a brand, not a 100% exact representation of the product/company. Don't take it too literally. Python is also a wild and dangerous animal, but Python language and the users are very far from that. :)

I get this often too, but now I show them pas2js.

I meant Pascal for server side web app, similar to Python or PHP or whatever.

But unfortunately, I don't believe a flashy/cute/whatever logo will change this...

Of course, a new logo isn't a silver bullet. It won't make Pascal famous overnight. This new logo surely wouldn't help much if we don't follow it with promotions and good contents. But at least, we have a new, fresh, attractive, and modern face to begin with. Hopefully this new face would bring new spirit to the community to do more. I've read somewhere in the list/forum, some people even suggested to change Pascal name to break the relation and association to the old Pascal. Should we?

You know what, almost every time I talk about Pascal to young developers, they think the old and stupid Brian Kernighan's article "Why Pascal is Not My Favorite Programming Language" still applied. It's the reason why RemObject use a new name for its Pascal-based compiler.

I am curious :)

Thank you, but I can't promise you anything yet. I'm doing this in my spare time, mostly on the weekend. We're in no rush, just consider this as a mind project.

I really do appreciate you taking the time to do this. It's not because I
think differently about what the result should be that I don't appreciate the effort you put in this, so thank you for that !

You're welcome. I fully understand it. It's alright. In fact, we need your opinion, also from other FPC core devs as well. We need to know what you guys want with the logo in particular and the project in general. This new logo proposal means nothing without core devs' approval. I'm just a happy user and big supporter of FPC who haven't contribute anything useful to the project. 

-- 

Regards,


–Mr Bee

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Re: Proposal for new Free Pascal logo

Michael Van Canneyt


On Wed, 4 Apr 2018, Mr Bee via fpc-pascal wrote:

> 2018-04-03 14:21 GMT+07:00 Michael Van Canneyt <[hidden email]>:
>
>>
>> I meant the icon it uses for the IDE.
>
>
> Do you mean this:
> http://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/File:Lazarus-icons-lpr-proposal-bpsoftware.png
> ?

Yes. For me, this is the direction to go in.

>> And here I will stop: as said, branding is not a subject I am particularly
>>
> fond of or interested in. I am more interested in the contents of the box
>> than in the packaging...
>
>
> Well… if we want Pascal to be known again –as modern programming language,
> not the old 70's Pascal– then branding is quite important. Especially to
> young generation. See what Apple has been achiving with Swift within only 4
> years. It goes from nothing to the top 10 of most known programming
> languages of the world today, despite all of its flaws and immaturity. Sure
> it's also helped by the power of Apple's brand (and marketting), it's still
> a good achievement nevertheless.
Eh, and the fact that you are almost forced to use it if you want to program
for the Mac these days ?

Just like Microsoft pushes everyone to C#.

I think the innate properties of these programming languages have nothing to do with
it. It's just a vendor lock-in strategy.

>> If we're looking for 'My little pony' kind of people, then we should
>> definitely aim for cute :)
>>
>> But this is not exactly the kind of people I think we should attract.
>>
>
> Well, I'm exactly aiming at young people, the next generation of Pascal
> developers. I've been seeing FPC's core devs team doesn't change much since
> the first time I found FPC almost 20 years ago. I mean no offense, but I'm
> not hoping to see this same team again for the next 20 years. I hope we're
> starting to see new and younger people joining this great open source
> project that we love. These young people is our hope to keep Pascal alive
> in the future.
Absolutely.

The question is: do you need 'cute' in order to attract young, capable, people?

I doubt that.

>
> A cheetah is not cute. It's a wild animal which will have no compunction
>> about slashing your throat or ripping your intestines out if you get it
>> cornered.
>>
>
> It's just a logo. It's a brand, not a 100% exact representation of the
> product/company. Don't take it too literally. Python is also a wild and
> dangerous animal, but Python language and the users are very far from that.
> :)
And this kind of statement is why I don't take branding or marketing seriously.

On one hand "..then branding is quite important" and on the other hand
"don't take it too literally".

That simply does not compute for me.

Michael.
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Re: Proposal for new Free Pascal logo

stdreamer
On 04/04/2018 12:58 μμ, Michael Van Canneyt wrote:

> And this kind of statement is why I don't take branding or marketing
> seriously.
>
> On one hand "..then branding is quite important" and on the other hand
> "don't take it too literally".
>
> That simply does not compute for me.
>
let me try to make it clear.
1) branding is important in the same sense that a stab of approval is
important or the CE logo is important in EU. It must be unique it must
be easily recognizable.
2) It is important that the logo deviates from the actual object it
represents a lot otherwise it stops being unique and it becomes one more
kitten in the internet, unless of course you have a couple of million to
spend on advertising and building the company image in which case forget
everything I said use a gray half eaten mouse and you are set.

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Re: Proposal for new Free Pascal logo

Michael Van Canneyt


On Wed, 4 Apr 2018, stdreamer wrote:

> On 04/04/2018 12:58 μμ, Michael Van Canneyt wrote:
>
>> And this kind of statement is why I don't take branding or marketing
>> seriously.
>>
>> On one hand "..then branding is quite important" and on the other hand
>> "don't take it too literally".
>>
>> That simply does not compute for me.
>>
> let me try to make it clear.
> 1) branding is important in the same sense that a stab of approval is
> important or the CE logo is important in EU. It must be unique it must
> be easily recognizable.
Hm. Clearly, that means not important at all for me:

I cannot recall ever having looked at the CE logo.
In fact, until 30 seconds ago, I did not even know what it stands for.

At least I've learned that then :)

Michael.
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Re: Proposal for new Free Pascal logo

stdreamer
On 04/04/2018 14:22 μμ, Michael Van Canneyt wrote:
>
> Hm. Clearly, that means not important at all for me:
>
> I cannot recall ever having looked at the CE logo. In fact, until 30
> seconds ago, I did not even know what it stands for.
Well it is, you are just not aware of it.
It presents it self in the most subtle ways eg you like a place because
it is homey, which means it smells familiar or the lighting is familiar
or colors are familiar . A logo is the same way it might become
something to cherish or something to avoid but it will affect your
primary selection long before you rich the point of evaluation.
the idea is to have something simple & familiar that will add you to the
point of evaluation.

> At least I've learned that then :)
Well, sorry I wasted your time, that might had some weight if it wasn't
mandatory. As things are now its only a cost for the EU residents.


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Re: Proposal for new Free Pascal logo

Free Pascal - General mailing list
In reply to this post by Michael Van Canneyt
2018-04-04 16:58 GMT+07:00 Michael Van Canneyt <[hidden email]>:

Do you mean this:
http://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/File:Lazarus-icons-lpr-proposal-bpsoftware.png
?

Yes. For me, this is the direction to go in.

But it's Lazarus logo. I think we should have a distinguished logo between the compiler and the IDE.

Eh, and the fact that you are almost forced to use it if you want to program for the Mac these days ?
Just like Microsoft pushes everyone to C#.

Actually, nobody pushes anybody to use anything. As a first party solution, of course it would be advertised as the best tool for the platform. Being advertised doesn't mean it's pushed to everyone because in reality you can use whatever tool you want as long it supports the platform.
 
I think the innate properties of these programming languages have nothing to do with
it. It's just a vendor lock-in strategy.

Lock-in strategy is just a term in business, but it never really locks anybody into anything. You won't be punished if you don't use Swift on Apple's platform or C# on Microsoft's platform. You're still free to use anything on any platforms. But usually you'll get many benefits and advantages if you use first party solution that sometimes can't be provided by third party solutions. Some might see it as being locked, some others might see it as a service.
 
The question is: do you need 'cute' in order to attract young, capable, people?
I doubt that.

I was talking about the mascot, not the logo. And I think it's good to have a cute mascot. Why everything has to be formal and serious? :)  

And this kind of statement is why I don't take branding or marketing seriously.
On one hand "..then branding is quite important" and on the other hand "don't take it too literally".
That simply does not compute for me.

Because you mix the whole things up. Branding is important but it doesn't need to represent the company/product literally. A brand is like our name. Everybody is known by the name, but the name doesn't necessarily represent the image of the person literally. Mr White doesn't have to be a man in all white color, for example. Yet everyone would still call him Mr White. Everybody knows apple is a fruit, yet everybody knows a bitten Apple fruit logo represents a company that produces computers and smartphones with no apple fruits involved whatsoever.

--

Regards,


–Mr Bee

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Re: Proposal for new Free Pascal logo

Michael Van Canneyt


On Fri, 6 Apr 2018, Mr Bee via fpc-pascal wrote:

>> Yes. For me, this is the direction to go in.
>
>
> But it's Lazarus logo. I think we should have a distinguished logo between
> the compiler and the IDE.

I didn't say you need to copy it. I just think that it is minimalistic,
yet still recognizable, and that is what I think should be aimed for.

> I was talking about the mascot, not the logo. And I think it's good to have
> a cute mascot. Why everything has to be formal and serious? :)

I am not favouring "serious", but 'cute' does not do it for me.
See my remark about 'my little pony' people.

>
> And this kind of statement is why I don't take branding or marketing
>> seriously.
>> On one hand "..then branding is quite important" and on the other hand
>> "don't take it too literally".
>> That simply does not compute for me.
>
>
> Because you mix the whole things up. Branding is important but it doesn't
> need to represent the company/product literally. A brand is like our name.

To begin with, I do not hold the point of view that branding is important.
So the rest of the discussion is purely academic.

However, if I must choose between a mascot that I dislike or the current gif
of a running cheetah, I will vote in favour of the latter option.

Michael.
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Re: Proposal for new Free Pascal logo

Reimar Grabowski
In reply to this post by Free Pascal - General mailing list
On Fri, 6 Apr 2018 09:53:19 +0700
Mr Bee via fpc-pascal <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Lock-in strategy is just a term in business, but it never really locks
> anybody into anything. You won't be punished if you don't use Swift on
> Apple's platform or C# on Microsoft's platform. You're still free to use
> anything on any platforms. But usually you'll get many benefits...

The benefits being mostly that you don't have the disadvantages especially introduced for not using it?

> Because you mix the whole things up. Branding is important but it doesn't
> need to represent the company/product literally.
But it needs to represent.

> A brand is like our name.
No, it's not.

R.

P.S.: Cute logos s*ck
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Re: Proposal for new Free Pascal logo

Ben Grasset
I'm not at all getting why people think it's "kitten-like." Have you guys ever actually seen a kitten? This logo looks like a cheetah, as it's presumably supposed to. And a much better/more tasteful cheetah than that ancient, annoying "running" GIF at the top of all the Free Pascal websites honestly.

On Fri, Apr 6, 2018 at 12:27 PM, Reimar Grabowski <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Fri, 6 Apr 2018 09:53:19 +0700
Mr Bee via fpc-pascal <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Lock-in strategy is just a term in business, but it never really locks
> anybody into anything. You won't be punished if you don't use Swift on
> Apple's platform or C# on Microsoft's platform. You're still free to use
> anything on any platforms. But usually you'll get many benefits...

The benefits being mostly that you don't have the disadvantages especially introduced for not using it?

> Because you mix the whole things up. Branding is important but it doesn't
> need to represent the company/product literally.
But it needs to represent.

> A brand is like our name.
No, it's not.

R.

P.S.: Cute logos s*ck
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Re: Proposal for new Free Pascal logo

Reimar Grabowski
On Sun, 8 Apr 2018 21:58:55 -0400
Ben Grasset <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I'm not at all getting why people think it's "kitten-like." Have you guys
> ever actually seen a kitten?
Sure, they look like this: https://tinyurl.com/y9hod4gg

> And a much better/more tasteful cheetah than that
> ancient, annoying "running" GIF at the top of all the Free Pascal websites
> honestly.
Better does not mean good.
The point being is that tastes differ.

R.
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