Pascal Lexical Diagrams

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Re: Pascal Lexical Diagrams

Mark Morgan Lloyd-5
Michael Van Canneyt wrote:

>> Found <https://github.com/tabatkins/railroad-diagrams>.
>>
>> Sorry for ask! ^^'
>
> Nice. Added to my bookmarks :-)
> I may actually use this to redo the official ones as PNG images.

Without wanting to go too far OT, I wonder whether I could make a couple
of observations.

When I was with Burroughs in the early 80s, these things were referred
to internally as "railroad diagrams". However,
http://www.ianjoyner.name/Files/Waychoff.pdf (page 8) tells the story of
the invention (by Burroughs) of this sort of illustration, and while
much of that document is suspect I think that bit can be believed
because some of it involves ACM publications etc.

Waychoff refers to them as "syntax charts", Perlis described the ALGOL
one as "The ALGOL Roadmap" and it was in "Communications Of
The ACM [...] September, 1961. It was undoubtedly the first centerfold
for any magazine other than “Playboy”".

So hopefully we can drop the nasty "railroad" Americanism, since it
wasn't the original name. And hopefully we can use "syntax" in the name,
since that's what they describe. Hence "syntax chart", "syntax diagram"
or something similar. Please :-)

--
Mark Morgan Lloyd
markMLl .AT. telemetry.co .DOT. uk

[Opinions above are the author's, not those of his employers or colleagues]
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Re: Pascal Lexical Diagrams

Graeme Geldenhuys-6
In reply to this post by Michael Van Canneyt
On 2016-01-30 19:12, Michael Van Canneyt wrote:
> Wikimedia is NOT documentation. It is a knowledgebase.

+1000

The Lazarus project just doesn't seem to get that. The Lazarus wiki has
so much broken or outdated information, no offline support, no
documentation per Lazarus release. The list off "broken" things are
getting longer and longer.

Regards,
  - Graeme -

--
fpGUI Toolkit - a cross-platform GUI toolkit using Free Pascal
http://fpgui.sourceforge.net/

My public PGP key:  http://tinyurl.com/graeme-pgp
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Re: Pascal Lexical Diagrams

Graeme Geldenhuys-6
In reply to this post by Ewald-2
On 2016-01-30 19:34, Ewald wrote:
> So I am
> trying to convince you to collaborate to the existing documentation
> instead of writing your own. Because your own documentation will also be
> a one-man project,

+1

And he will be 15+ years behind Michael van Canneyt's efforts.


Regards,
  - Graeme -

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Re: Pascal Lexical Diagrams

OBones
In reply to this post by Mark Morgan Lloyd-5
Mark Morgan Lloyd wrote:

> So hopefully we can drop the nasty "railroad" Americanism, since it
> wasn't the original name. And hopefully we can use "syntax" in the
> name, since that's what they describe. Hence "syntax chart", "syntax
> diagram" or something similar. Please :-)
>
Where I live, "syntax diagrams" make much more sense.
And online image search engines also seem to agree with that
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Re: Pascal Lexical Diagrams

Graeme Geldenhuys-6
In reply to this post by Jürgen Hestermann
On 2016-01-30 12:26, Jürgen Hestermann wrote:
> The look of the diagrams is very good.

Call me old-fashioned, but what is wrong with the EBNF (Extended
Backus-Naur Form) which is also an ISO standard.

   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extended_Backus%E2%80%93Naur_Form

I think the EBNF syntax is crystal clear to read and follow.

Here is an extract from my "Object Pascal Grammar" addendum to the
official FPC Language Reference documentation:

===========================================================
Number -> [ "-" ], digit, { digit } ;

String ->  "'" , { all characters - "'" }, "'" ;

alphabetic character ->  "A" | "B" | "C" | "D" | "E" | "F" | "G"
                      | "H" | "I" | "J" | "K" | "L" | "M" | "N"
                      | "O" | "P" | "Q" | "R" | "S" | "T" | "U"
                      | "V" | "W" | "X" | "Y" | "Z" ;

digit ->  "0" | "1" | "2" | "3" | "4" | "5" | "6" | "7" | "8" | "9" ;

all characters ->  ? all visible characters ? ;

===========================================================


Regards,
  - Graeme -

My public PGP key:  http://tinyurl.com/graeme-pgp
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Re: Pascal Lexical Diagrams

Mark Morgan Lloyd-5
Graeme Geldenhuys wrote:
> On 2016-01-30 12:26, Jürgen Hestermann wrote:> The look of the diagrams is very good.
> Call me old-fashioned, but what is wrong with the EBNF (ExtendedBackus-Naur Form) which is also an ISO standard.
>    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extended_Backus%E2%80%93Naur_Form
> I think the EBNF syntax is crystal clear to read and follow.
> Here is an extract from my "Object Pascal Grammar" addendum to theofficial FPC Language Reference documentation:

[Badly-formatted stuff dropped]

Broadly speaking, I sympathise with your position. EBNF particularly
makes more sense to people who for some reason need to know how to write
a compiler for the target language.

However, Wirth used syntax diagrams in his description of Pascal, and
didn't move to EBNF until later. As such it's part of the doctrine of
the language, and discarding it would in effect be breaking backward
compatibility.

http://www.standardpascal.org/The_Programming_Language_Pascal_1973.pdf

If you feel strongly about it I suggest doing the community a service by
porting one of the diagrammers to Pascal, and then making sure that it
can process your EBNF into diagrams suitable for the documentation. That
would avoid having multiple language descriptions in different forms,
which is obviously a hazard.

--
Mark Morgan Lloyd
markMLl .AT. telemetry.co .DOT. uk

[Opinions above are the author's, not those of his employers or colleagues]
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Re: Pascal Lexical Diagrams

dmitry boyarintsev
In reply to this post by Graeme Geldenhuys-6


On Mon, Feb 1, 2016 at 4:32 AM, Graeme Geldenhuys <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 2016-01-30 19:12, Michael Van Canneyt wrote:
> Wikimedia is NOT documentation. It is a knowledgebase.

+1000

The Lazarus project just doesn't seem to get that. The Lazarus wiki has
so much broken or outdated information, no offline support, no
documentation per Lazarus release. The list off "broken" things are
getting longer and longer.

Could you please categorize any page as "outdated"?

So later any page within the category could be considered for either update or removal.

thanks,
Dmitry


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Re: Pascal Lexical Diagrams

Graeme Geldenhuys-6
On 2016-02-01 14:59, Dmitry Boyarintsev wrote:
>
> Could you please categorize any page as "outdated"?

Is there a "outdated" category? If not, I don't know how to add new
categories.


> So later any page within the category could be considered for either update
> or removal.

The problem is that some pages are completely out of date, others have
out of date images (eg: screenshots of lazaras dialogs), and others
might have a section of text out of date.

Do all those get categorised as out of date, or should only whole pages
be marked as such? If the latter, that might help to some extent, but
would be far from a real solution.

The bottom line is, Lazarus needs an actual documentation solution (per
release, like FPC, fpGUI etc) - the wiki is not, and never will be that.

For example:

  http://fpgui.sourceforge.net/docs-1.4/
  http://fpgui.sourceforge.net/docs-1.0/
  http://fpgui.sourceforge.net/docs-0.8/
  http://fpgui.sourceforge.net/docs-0.4/


  http://sourceforge.net/projects/freepascal/files/Documentation/3.0.0/
  http://sourceforge.net/projects/freepascal/files/Documentation/2.6.4/
  http://sourceforge.net/projects/freepascal/files/Documentation/2.6.0/

Though FPC doesn't have all previous releases available online (viewable
via web browser), you can at least download PDF and HTML archives.


Regards,
  - Graeme -

My public PGP key:  http://tinyurl.com/graeme-pgp
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Re: Pascal Lexical Diagrams

dmitry boyarintsev
On Mon, Feb 1, 2016 at 10:19 AM, Graeme Geldenhuys <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 2016-02-01 14:59, Dmitry Boyarintsev wrote:
>
> Could you please categorize any page as "outdated"?

Is there a "outdated" category? If not, I don't know how to add new
categories.
The category is there now.
In order to categorize a page just edit it and add

[[Category:Outdated]]

to the end of the page.
 
The problem is that some pages are completely out of date, others have
out of date images (eg: screenshots of lazaras dialogs), and others
might have a section of text out of date.

Potentially, images could be categorized as well. Once found, it won't be forgotten.
 
Do all those get categorised as out of date, or should only whole pages
be marked as such? If the latter, that might help to some extent, but
would be far from a real solution.
It's better to mark, if the whole page is outdated.
Maybe create "Partial Outdated" category for the pages where only part of information is not up to date.
 
The bottom line is, Lazarus needs an actual documentation solution (per
release, like FPC, fpGUI etc) - the wiki is not, and never will be that.
There're no releases in knowledge base. Live and learn :)

thanks,
Dmitry


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Re: Pascal Lexical Diagrams

Peter
In reply to this post by Anthony Walter-3
On 30/01/16 09:45, Anthony Walter wrote:
> I've been working on writing Javascript to generate lexical language
> diagrams

Would this be of any interest? (Rather than reinvent the wheel.)
http://www.bottlecaps.de/rr/ui


Peter

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Re: Pascal Lexical Diagrams

Graeme Geldenhuys-6
On 2016-02-01 16:13, Peter wrote:
> Would this be of any interest? (Rather than reinvent the wheel.)
> http://www.bottlecaps.de/rr/ui


Very nice, thanks for sharing.


Regards,
  - Graeme -


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Re: *** GMX Spamverdacht *** Re: Pascal Lexical Diagrams

Jürgen Hestermann
In reply to this post by Michael Van Canneyt


Am 2016-01-30 um 20:44 schrieb Michael Van Canneyt:
> I can only concur with what Ewald writes.

Are the Latex sources for the documenation
available somewhere for download?

I would like to check why the syntax diagrams
created with the syntax.sty
are incorrect and how they can be improved.

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Re: *** GMX Spamverdacht *** Re: Pascal Lexical Diagrams

Michael Van Canneyt


On Mon, 1 Feb 2016, Jürgen Hestermann wrote:

>
>
> Am 2016-01-30 um 20:44 schrieb Michael Van Canneyt:
>> I can only concur with what Ewald writes.
>
> Are the Latex sources for the documenation
> available somewhere for download?

They are in svn.

>
> I would like to check why the syntax diagrams
> created with the syntax.sty
> are incorrect and how they can be improved.

Feel free to do so.
You can also simply submit bugs to the bugtracker, I usually fix documentation bugs ASAP.

Michael.
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