Pascal Compiler - Missing Messages etc.

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Pascal Compiler - Missing Messages etc.

Jason P Sage
I'm just writing to say for the new people that if the Free Pascal IDE is
not working for you, the command line fpc command has all you need right out
the box! If it doesn't seem to do something you want - the programmer's
manual (PDF I used anyway) has a ton of command line options - that might be
worth putting in a script or batch file (windows/dos flavor script). There
are a ton of compiler directives you can put in your program's source code
(my favorite option).

This is how I use the Free Pascal compiler.

For editing source code, on Linux I like KWrite (syntax aware color coding
and I like it) .. In windows I use this free programmable editor called
TeraText Editor - some guy in Russia made - and its excellent. (Column
editing that actually works right!)

Another thing I do to make life easier is I work out of one directory, and I
try to be smart about file naming for organization versus relying on some
IDE to "group" my files into projects.

Then I can work on my PROGRAMS and my UNITS from one location, linking is a
breeze, and its easy to snap shot my whole directory for a SOURCE CODE
version. My idea on source control in my own computer is making a directory
named with a year, month, day, 24hr time (fpc200607200739) and then zipping
it up.

I know most of you know this stuff and it's a no brainer - but - I just
wanted to say this because I see people having problems sometimes getting
started and sometimes its easier to go around the ditch than to build a
bridge!

Free Pascal = Awesome

Jason P Sage

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Re: Pascal Compiler - Missing Messages etc.

Rainer Stratmann
Am Donnerstag, 20. Juli 2006 13:44 schrieb Jason P Sage:
> I know most of you know this stuff and it's a no brainer - but - I just
> wanted to say this because I see people having problems sometimes getting
> started and sometimes its easier to go around the ditch than to build a
> bridge!

It is a reason, why fp don't come closer to the "critical mass".

In my view these "simple things" must have highest priority.

In the Linux installation routine there is an install-question
something like "do you want to install /usr/ or /usr/local/"

A beginner can not know what this is good for. Also there is no information if
the install routine on Linux must have root rights...

So if a beginner does not get work these "simple things" he give up very fast.

3 Years ago I tried to install fp, but I did not get it to work, now it gets
closer to work.
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Re: Pascal Compiler - Missing Messages etc.

Florian Klaempfl
Rainer Stratmann wrote:
> Am Donnerstag, 20. Juli 2006 13:44 schrieb Jason P Sage:
>> I know most of you know this stuff and it's a no brainer - but - I just
>> wanted to say this because I see people having problems sometimes getting
>> started and sometimes its easier to go around the ditch than to build a
>> bridge!
>
> It is a reason, why fp don't come closer to the "critical mass".

Which critical mass?

>
> In my view these "simple things" must have highest priority.
>
> In the Linux installation routine there is an install-question
> something like "do you want to install /usr/ or /usr/local/"

The default is fine?

>
> A beginner can not know what this is good for. Also there is no information if
> the install routine on Linux must have root rights...

Well, because it depends on were you install? People not installing as
root should know how to change /usr/local to something appropriate.

>
> So if a beginner does not get work these "simple things" he give up very fast.

People don't dig into such stuff will be never good programmers, so I
see no real problem if they give up :) Programming is full of such
challenges.

>
> 3 Years ago I tried to install fp, but I did not get it to work, now it gets
> closer to work.
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> http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal

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Re: Pascal Compiler - Missing Messages etc.

Tomas Hajny
On 20 Jul 06, at 22:41, Florian Klaempfl wrote:
> Rainer Stratmann wrote:
> > Am Donnerstag, 20. Juli 2006 13:44 schrieb Jason P Sage:
 .
 .

> > In my view these "simple things" must have highest priority.
> >
> > In the Linux installation routine there is an install-question
> > something like "do you want to install /usr/ or /usr/local/"
>
> The default is fine?
>
> > A beginner can not know what this is good for. Also there is no information if
> > the install routine on Linux must have root rights...
>
> Well, because it depends on were you install? People not installing as
> root should know how to change /usr/local to something appropriate.
>
> > So if a beginner does not get work these "simple things" he give up very fast.
>
> People don't dig into such stuff will be never good programmers, so I
> see no real problem if they give up :) Programming is full of such
> challenges.

;-) What would you think about distribution of
Win32 version with install.bat script asking you
to choose whether you want to put cygwin1.dll in
system32 or your new bin directory? While Linux
is moving to desktops little bit more, there are
more users who don't know details of their OS.
Such people might be perfectly able to find the
appropriate information, but they might not be
interested to have to do it just to install
something and possibly test what it can do for
them and whether they should continue using it or
throw it away.

My 2 cents, anyway

Tomas
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Re: Pascal Compiler - Missing Messages etc.

Florian Klaempfl
Tomas Hajny wrote:

> On 20 Jul 06, at 22:41, Florian Klaempfl wrote:
>> Rainer Stratmann wrote:
>>> Am Donnerstag, 20. Juli 2006 13:44 schrieb Jason P Sage:
>  .
>  .
>>> In my view these "simple things" must have highest priority.
>>>
>>> In the Linux installation routine there is an install-question
>>> something like "do you want to install /usr/ or /usr/local/"
>> The default is fine?
>>
>>> A beginner can not know what this is good for. Also there is no information if
>>> the install routine on Linux must have root rights...
>> Well, because it depends on were you install? People not installing as
>> root should know how to change /usr/local to something appropriate.
>>
>>> So if a beginner does not get work these "simple things" he give up very fast.
>> People don't dig into such stuff will be never good programmers, so I
>> see no real problem if they give up :) Programming is full of such
>> challenges.
>
> ;-) What would you think about distribution of
> Win32 version with install.bat script asking you

Since linux people didn't get it to make a common gui, a gui installer
isn't doable.

> to choose whether you want to put cygwin1.dll in
> system32 or your new bin directory? While Linux

The windows installer also asks where it should install fpc. The
install.sh doesn't ask more. As long as a default option is offered, I
see no problem.

> is moving to desktops little bit more, there are
> more users who don't know details of their OS.
> Such people might be perfectly able to find the
> appropriate information, but they might not be
> interested to have to do it just to install
> something and possibly test what it can do for
> them and whether they should continue using it or
> throw it away.
>
> My 2 cents, anyway
>
> Tomas
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Re: Pascal Compiler - Missing Messages etc.

Vinzent Höfler
In reply to this post by Tomas Hajny
Tomas Hajny wrote:

> ;-) What would you think about distribution of
> Win32 version with install.bat script asking you
> to choose whether you want to put cygwin1.dll in
> system32 or your new bin directory?

So all you're asking for is a "If you don't know the answer, just press
<ENTER>"? Isn't that the default already? ;)


Vinzent.
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Re: Pascal Compiler - Missing Messages etc.

Alexandre Leclerc
In reply to this post by Florian Klaempfl
2006/7/20, Florian Klaempfl <[hidden email]>:

> Tomas Hajny wrote:
> > On 20 Jul 06, at 22:41, Florian Klaempfl wrote:
> >> Rainer Stratmann wrote:
> >>> Am Donnerstag, 20. Juli 2006 13:44 schrieb Jason P Sage:
> >  .
> >  .
> >>> In my view these "simple things" must have highest priority.
> >>>
> >>> In the Linux installation routine there is an install-question
> >>> something like "do you want to install /usr/ or /usr/local/"
> >> The default is fine?
> >>
> >>> A beginner can not know what this is good for. Also there is no information if
> >>> the install routine on Linux must have root rights...
> >> Well, because it depends on were you install? People not installing as
> >> root should know how to change /usr/local to something appropriate.
> >>
> >>> So if a beginner does not get work these "simple things" he give up very fast.
> >> People don't dig into such stuff will be never good programmers, so I
> >> see no real problem if they give up :) Programming is full of such
> >> challenges.
> >
> > ;-) What would you think about distribution of
> > Win32 version with install.bat script asking you
>
> Since linux people didn't get it to make a common gui, a gui installer
> isn't doable.

There is autopackage.org which is a very nice piece of work... but al
c/c++ centric.

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Re: Pascal Compiler - Missing Messages etc.

Rainer Stratmann
In reply to this post by Florian Klaempfl
Am Donnerstag, 20. Juli 2006 22:41 schrieb Florian Klaempfl:

> Rainer Stratmann wrote:
> > Am Donnerstag, 20. Juli 2006 13:44 schrieb Jason P Sage:
> >> I know most of you know this stuff and it's a no brainer - but - I just
> >> wanted to say this because I see people having problems sometimes
> >> getting started and sometimes its easier to go around the ditch than to
> >> build a bridge!
> >
> > It is a reason, why fp don't come closer to the "critical mass".
>
> Which critical mass?

Pascal is an ideal, maybe the best programming language.
Do you want that more people use it?
I saw pictures about a booth whith the maintainers of fpc at a linux-fair.
It would be better if you can say to the ones who are interested that fpc is a
language whith a userfriendly environment. I am sure in this case more people
would use it.

> > In my view these "simple things" must have highest priority.
> >
> > In the Linux installation routine there is an install-question
> > something like "do you want to install /usr/ or /usr/local/"
>
> The default is fine?

...maybe for the linux expert...
...many people want to swith from another os, so they are not familiar with
linux...
...when I type /usr/local then error messages come, so this irritates then and
is a reason why not use it or why to say it is not good enough...

> > A beginner can not know what this is good for. Also there is no
> > information if the install routine on Linux must have root rights...
>
> Well, because it depends on were you install? People not installing as
> root should know how to change /usr/local to something appropriate.

Sorry I don't know this at the moment of installing, like you don't know at
this moment how to make userfriendly installers ;)

> > So if a beginner does not get work these "simple things" he give up very
> > fast.
>
> People don't dig into such stuff will be never good programmers, so I
> see no real problem if they give up :) Programming is full of such
> challenges.

Partly I agree, but, what has a good programmer to do with internals of any
os? That a programmer should be an intelligent person does not mean that it
could not be an advantage if fpc run "out of the box".

It would be shining a better light on fpc then.

If the installing step is easy then many people can use their source code they
wrote for dos for example.

Ok, there are then many challenges to do, but "hello world" runs already then
and it is very easier to build up on "hello world" then got nothing to work.

> Tomas Hajny wrote:

> > ;-) What would you think about distribution of
> > Win32 version with install.bat script asking you
> > to choose whether you want to put cygwin1.dll in
> > system32 or your new bin directory?
>
>So all you're asking for is a "If you don't know the answer, just press
><ENTER>"? Isn't that the default already? ;)
It woul be an advantage, if there is a short description why to type what.
...at the moment the user can ask the same question if it is the default
already...? ;)
When there is a description the user is more sure about the installation.
>
>Vinzent.
Rainer
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Re: Pascal Compiler - Missing Messages etc.

Marco van de Voort
> > People don't dig into such stuff will be never good programmers, so I
> > see no real problem if they give up :) Programming is full of such
> > challenges.
>
> Partly I agree, but, what has a good programmer to do with internals of any
> os?

Philosophically saying, that would enter the programmer into a purely
consumer relation with the OS. Which isn't the case in OSS, since there is a
shared responsibility by all users, nobody excluded.

So in the case of an OSS - (substitute what you want for the dash), the
programmer is as responsible as the next guy.
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Re: Pascal Compiler - Missing Messages etc.

Micha Nelissen
In reply to this post by Rainer Stratmann
Rainer Stratmann wrote:
> Partly I agree, but, what has a good programmer to do with internals of any
> os? That a programmer should be an intelligent person does not mean that it
> could not be an advantage if fpc run "out of the box".

What do you count as "internals" ? Surely the programmer should be
familiar with basic directory layout ? Just like windows has C:\Windows,
C:\Program Files, etc. unix has other conventions. I wouldn't count
these as "internals" of the OS.

Micha
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Re: Pascal Compiler - Missing Messages etc.

Tomas Hajny
In reply to this post by Marco van de Voort
Marco van de Voort wrote:

>> > People don't dig into such stuff will be never good programmers, so I
>> > see no real problem if they give up :) Programming is full of such
>> > challenges.
>>
>> Partly I agree, but, what has a good programmer to do with internals of
>> any
>> os?
>
> Philosophically saying, that would enter the programmer into a purely
> consumer relation with the OS. Which isn't the case in OSS, since there is
> a
> shared responsibility by all users, nobody excluded.
 .
 .

You hit the point, except that it _is_ becoming the case with Linux
distributed by companies who provide support to their users. ;-) FPC
installer shouldn't make assumptions about the type of user (consumer or
OSS geek), because both exist nowadays.

Tomas

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Re: Pascal Compiler - Missing Messages etc.

Rainer Stratmann
In reply to this post by Micha Nelissen
Am Freitag, 21. Juli 2006 15:07 schrieb Micha Nelissen:
> Rainer Stratmann wrote:
> > Partly I agree, but, what has a good programmer to do with internals of
> > any os? That a programmer should be an intelligent person does not mean
> > that it could not be an advantage if fpc run "out of the box".
>
> What do you count as "internals" ? Surely the programmer should be
> familiar with basic directory layout ? Just like windows has C:\Windows,
> C:\Program Files, etc. unix has other conventions. I wouldn't count
> these as "internals" of the OS.

Yes, ideally the programmer should know all of it in any os.
To simplify it, internals for me are things because a program does not run.

O.K. the conventions of Linux I don't know exactly...
I don't know at the moment what /usr/local/ is good for...
But is it necessary to know it for programming?

> Micha
Rainer
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Re: Pascal Compiler - Missing Messages etc.

Marco van de Voort
In reply to this post by Tomas Hajny
> Marco van de Voort wrote:
> > Philosophically saying, that would enter the programmer into a purely
> > consumer relation with the OS. Which isn't the case in OSS, since there is
> > a
> > shared responsibility by all users, nobody excluded.
>
> You hit the point, except that it _is_ becoming the case with Linux
> distributed by companies who provide support to their users. ;-) FPC
> installer shouldn't make assumptions about the type of user (consumer or
> OSS geek), because both exist nowadays.

Incorrect, and I don't see what an OSS geek is supposed to be.

I/We don't have a consumer relation with what you call consumers. Those
distro's that pocketed the cash have.

That is not that I'm against decent release building, but there is a
tradeoff here, and one that is aggrevated due to use of several installer
and hierarchy conventions.
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Re: Pascal Compiler - Missing Messages etc.

Dale Welch
Is there not a standard by distributions which tells software the standard place to install.
I have noticed different distributions seem to have different preferences. :-)

It seems there should be a file in /etc
which would have defined places for installation of software,
configuration information, and where to put variable files (files you change in operation).
something like:
  pref1_global-install /usr/local
  pref2_global-install /usr/share
  pref3_global_install /opt
  pref_local_install ~/apps

  place_local_link_in ~/bin
  place_gobal_link_in /usr/local/bin
  xmenu_add /usr/bin/xmenu_add [global|local] bin desc

--- dale

On Friday 21 July 2006 06:50, Marco van de Voort wrote:

> > Marco van de Voort wrote:
> > > Philosophically saying, that would enter the programmer into a purely
> > > consumer relation with the OS. Which isn't the case in OSS, since there is
> > > a
> > > shared responsibility by all users, nobody excluded.
> >
> > You hit the point, except that it _is_ becoming the case with Linux
> > distributed by companies who provide support to their users. ;-) FPC
> > installer shouldn't make assumptions about the type of user (consumer or
> > OSS geek), because both exist nowadays.
>
> Incorrect, and I don't see what an OSS geek is supposed to be.
>
> I/We don't have a consumer relation with what you call consumers. Those
> distro's that pocketed the cash have.
>
> That is not that I'm against decent release building, but there is a
> tradeoff here, and one that is aggrevated due to use of several installer
> and hierarchy conventions.
> _______________________________________________
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>
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Re: Pascal Compiler - Missing Messages etc.

Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho
In reply to this post by Alexandre Leclerc
On 7/21/06, Alexandre Leclerc <[hidden email]> wrote:
> There is autopackage.org which is a very nice piece of work... but al
> c/c++ centric.

If you look on google there are several statements from the main
developers of ubuntu, gentoo and other major distributions that say
horrible things about autopackage. It´s considered one of the worse
ways to install an application possible.

Just one link: http://devmanual.gentoo.org/ebuild-writing/functions/src_unpack/autopackage/index.html

There are dozens of other links of other distros says even worse things.

AFAIK the solution to easely install a software on Linux is to use the
native packages, like .rpm and .deb

Thinking about that I wrote a tutorial for people that use free pascal
and want to generate rpm packages for their software here:

http://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/index.php/Deploying_Your_Application

--
Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho
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Re: Pascal Compiler - Missing Messages etc.

Rainer Stratmann
Am Freitag, 21. Juli 2006 20:00 schrieb Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho:
> AFAIK the solution to easely install a software on Linux is to use the
> native packages, like .rpm and .deb

The solution for fpc at this moment is quite ok. It does not have to be
graphical.
It can be improved for those who don't know the linux conventions for example.
I only want to say that because I write programs for people who don't know any
conventions. So I see it from this point.
If fpc wants to get more users - then in my opinion the highest priority is to
get fpc as fast as possible and as easy as possible to run.
Conventions can be learned later also.
Also a good way would be to put it in distributions for example Knoppix or
Kanotix.

Rainer
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Re: Pascal Compiler - Missing Messages etc.

Arne Hanssen
Rainer Stratmann skrev:

> Am Freitag, 21. Juli 2006 20:00 schrieb Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho:
>> AFAIK the solution to easely install a software on Linux is to use the
>> native packages, like .rpm and .deb
>
> The solution for fpc at this moment is quite ok. It does not have to be
> graphical.
> It can be improved for those who don't know the linux conventions for example.
> I only want to say that because I write programs for people who don't know any
> conventions. So I see it from this point.
> If fpc wants to get more users - then in my opinion the highest priority is to
> get fpc as fast as possible and as easy as possible to run.
> Conventions can be learned later also.
> Also a good way would be to put it in distributions for example Knoppix or
> Kanotix.

Or convince someone to make native packages for the most used distros.
But since this is not done already I'll guess noone volunteered.

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