OT a bit - Planet Object Pascal

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Re: OT a bit - Planet Object Pascal

Florian Klaempfl


waldo kitty <[hidden email]> schrieb:

>On 2/17/2013 14:35, Florian Klämpfl wrote:
>> Am 17.02.2013 20:31, schrieb Frank Church:
>>> One more thing lest I forget. The official FPC documentation is very
>>> good, especially for documents created by volunteers and hobbyists.
>>> That it is not accompanied by examples
>>
>> c:\fpc\docs>dir ex*.pp /s | grep -c ex
>> 668
>>
>> What do I miss?
>
>they are not /in/ the documentation

They are...

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Re: OT a bit - Planet Object Pascal

ik-6
In reply to this post by wkitty42
On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 3:54 AM, waldo kitty <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 2/17/2013 19:40, Rainer Stratmann wrote:
>>
>> Am Sunday 17 February 2013 18:45:50 schrieb Florian Klämpfl:
>>>
>>> Am 17.02.2013 18:10, schrieb ik:
>>>>
>>>> Nice, Pascal is at the same level of usage and exposure as gcc, Linux
>>>> kernel and llvm,
>>>
>>>
>>> And you think some fancy webpage filled with java script (which is
>>> turned off in my browser) would change this?
>>
>>
>> In my opinion it would be ok to make the webpage a little bit more
>> eyecandy.
>
>
> eyecandy isn't worth any more than regular candy... candy is candy which is
> only a sweet to attract those who can't/won't stomach the reality of the
> basics...

https://plus.google.com/u/0/112026213399155142823/posts/ERWneYjmyMD

Just for you :)

My last post in this whole subject. You know my opinion, it looks like
too many people outside the projects feels the same, but not inside of
it, enjoy.

>
>   a spoon full of sugar helps the medicine go down...
>
>
>> That can be done also without java script(!)
>
>
> agreed... but too many are wrapped up in making candy to suck on rather than
> a real meal that actually satisfies the hunger...
>
>
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Re: OT a bit - Planet Object Pascal

Sven Barth-2
In reply to this post by ik-6

Am 18.02.2013 08:32 schrieb "ik" <[hidden email]>:
> >
> >
> > Google and Sun are multibillion dollar corporations. Their owners
>
> Sorry but that is bullshit. I'm a freelancer, works alone, with
> minimal budget, yet I find the time to write specifications for my
> clients, documentation, emails, explaining things, checking stuff,
> doing booking, and even cleaning my work space.
>
> You give excuse to keep the existing problem, but actually there are
> so many open source projects of one or two people developing that
> prove that it can be, it's all up to you.

Could we all please calm down again especially *before* someone decides to leave the community?

I think or hope that we can all agree that there are different kinds of people:
- those that like to blog about (in this case) their work on/with Pascal (like Ido)
- those that would like to blog, but currently lack the time (like me)
- those that do not want to blog (like Florian)

I think this rather normal, because we are all human and every human is different and no flamewar will change who we are.

So in my opinion it would be the best if we now leave it at that. As Michael wrote we encourage the community members to spread the news about Free Pascal.

Ido, I don't know wether your freelancing is your main job (from what I've read I'd say it is), but you should not forget that for us core developers FPC is not. We are working on it in our free time besides having a full time job that might be completely unrelated to programming in Pascal or some of us are still going to the university (like me).
So the time spent on FPC is already limited which is why we don't normally spend much time on things like documentation, because we prefer to fix bugs or enhance the usability of FPC. But we thankfully have someone on our team that does work on documentation (Michael).

So to bring this mail to an end: if you have critics about the things we do, you are of course free to bring them up (free speech after all). But on the one hand this should not be done in the middle of a more or less heated discussion and on the other hand you should not expect that we'll completely agree with your critics, because either we don't want or we can't do things differently.

Thank you for reading.

Regards,
Sven


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Re: OT a bit - Planet Object Pascal

Reinier Olislagers
In reply to this post by Sven Barth-2
On 17-2-2013 14:52, Sven Barth wrote:

> On 17.02.2013 14:40, Frank Church wrote:
>> On 17 February 2013 09:35, Florian Klämpfl
>> <florian-y8GAwIkqPAJpn7uciFS/[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Am 17.02.2013 09:55, schrieb ik:
>>>> On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 at 10:13 AM, Florian Klämpfl
>>>> <florian-y8GAwIkqPAJpn7uciFS/[hidden email]
>>>> <mailto:florian-y8GAwIkqPAJpn7uciFS/[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> When I hear stuff like "sure pascal is cool but lack of good string
>>>> support", I think that it is more self explanatory then anything.
>>>>
>>>> At the local open source community I'm a known evangelist for Object
>>>> Pascal, and my blog is full of code, text etc, regarding stuff in
>>>> object
>>>> pascal.
>>>> Some of the people over here that actually started using FPC/Lazarus
>>>> arrived due to my blog posts, so spreading the word is very
>>>> important imho.
>>>
>>> It is. But some might code, others might evangelize. What I wanted to
>>> say: those who are interested what happens in FPC in detail might follow
>>> also the svn rss feed. There is simply no need for the developers to
>>> blog about this.
>>
>> To be fair to Michael and Florian, the compiler i.e. FPC is not  the
>> same as the IDE Lazarus, which is the hub for most of the activity, so
>> one can understand their outlook, but a bit of info from the leading
>> lights of FPC every now and then would be appreciated :)
<snip remark about Lazarus>
> It might not be related to Lazarus, but because of this I've started to
> write feature announcements for new and big changes (generic
> constraints, TThread extension, type helpers) so that users can see what
> new features were added to the compiler/the class libraries so that they
> can test them (and hopefully report bugs they find). Also I'm trying to
> give potential future developments so that they can see in what ways a
> feature could be improved.

Thanks, Sven, for writing these feature announcements. For me, they
help in letting me know what's going on.

I agree with a lot of the remarks about documentation in this thread. I
suspect that having some easy tool to edit fpdoc documentation and
directly show the results would be useful.
After producing some documentation with it, I've given up on fpdoc as
too unwieldy. I suspect many have or haven't even tried.
Having a tool in place (e.g. a web frontend, or an improved LazDE) that
allows easier editing of fpdoc documentation would help a lot.
This may help get more info into fpdoc instead of the wiki, the forum,
the mailing list...
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Re: OT a bit - Planet Object Pascal

Graeme Geldenhuys-3
In reply to this post by vfclists .
On 2013-02-17 13:40, Frank Church wrote:
>
> My beef is mostly with Lazarus developers. They are more at fault here
> as a lot of the new features which make a good difference to
> productivity tend go unannounced or unnoticed.

That's why I created the following wiki page... for exactly that reason.
I spent lots of hours searching the repository history, matching
features to dates and releases. I stopped doing it since just before the
v1.0 release.

  http://wiki.freepascal.org/New_IDE_features_since

The whole point of that wiki page was also to use animated gifs to
visually show a feature - instead of reading a long and boring list of text.

Maybe such a wiki page could also be created for LCL. But this is all a
discussion that belongs in the lazarus mailing list.

Regards,
  - Graeme -

--
fpGUI Toolkit - a cross-platform GUI toolkit using Free Pascal
http://fpgui.sourceforge.net/

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Re: OT a bit - Planet Object Pascal

Sven Barth-2
On 18.02.2013 12:19, Graeme Geldenhuys wrote:

> On 2013-02-17 13:40, Frank Church wrote:
>>
>> My beef is mostly with Lazarus developers. They are more at fault here
>> as a lot of the new features which make a good difference to
>> productivity tend go unannounced or unnoticed.
>
> That's why I created the following wiki page... for exactly that reason.
> I spent lots of hours searching the repository history, matching
> features to dates and releases. I stopped doing it since just before the
> v1.0 release.
>
>    http://wiki.freepascal.org/New_IDE_features_since
>
> The whole point of that wiki page was also to use animated gifs to
> visually show a feature - instead of reading a long and boring list of text.

I'm glad you did create such a page. It's nice to read :) [and I did
learn the nice feature here and then through that page as well :) ]

Regards,
Sven

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Re: OT a bit - Planet Object Pascal

vfclists .
In reply to this post by Mark Morgan Lloyd-5
On 17 February 2013 13:54, Mark Morgan Lloyd
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Frank Church wrote:
>
>>> And sometimes, having a high-profile blogger pushing one particular
>>> product
>>> can be counterproductive since he ends up a figure of fun.
>>
>>
>> Would the said high-profile blogger be Zarko of delphi.about.com, who
>> is referenced here -
>> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/12/11/verity_stob_sons_of_kahn/.
>> Fear not, Zarko has ceased blogging on delphi.about.com since January
>> 13 to work at Embarcadero. Perhaps he could be enticed to blog for
>> Lazarus and FPC
>
>
> I'm reluctant to mention names, since I don't see why I should nurture the
> hapless. However I was actually thinking about somebody who's presented a
> brave and optimistic face on Borland's behalf for several decades, as well
> as a few others I've known on a private conferencing service representing
> Borpricocadero, IBM and Sun.
>
>

Would he be bearded by any chance?

> --
> Mark Morgan Lloyd
> markMLl .AT. telemetry.co .DOT. uk
>
> [Opinions above are the author's, not those of his employers or colleagues]
> _______________________________________________
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--
Frank Church

=======================
http://devblog.brahmancreations.com
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Re: OT a bit - Planet Object Pascal

Mark Morgan Lloyd-5
In reply to this post by Sven Barth-2
Sven Barth wrote:

> On 18.02.2013 12:19, Graeme Geldenhuys wrote:
>> On 2013-02-17 13:40, Frank Church wrote:
>>>
>>> My beef is mostly with Lazarus developers. They are more at fault here
>>> as a lot of the new features which make a good difference to
>>> productivity tend go unannounced or unnoticed.
>>
>> That's why I created the following wiki page... for exactly that reason.
>> I spent lots of hours searching the repository history, matching
>> features to dates and releases. I stopped doing it since just before the
>> v1.0 release.
>>
>>    http://wiki.freepascal.org/New_IDE_features_since
>>
>> The whole point of that wiki page was also to use animated gifs to
>> visually show a feature - instead of reading a long and boring list of
>> text.
>
> I'm glad you did create such a page. It's nice to read :) [and I did
> learn the nice feature here and then through that page as well :) ]

I did some experimental hacking a couple of weeks ago which resulted in
a list of all RTL functions with which FPC versions they appeared in.
However what this really demonstrated was that trying to do it after the
event is unreliable, this sort of thing really needs to go back to the
original (XML or whatever) which might place unanticipated demands on
the software doing the job if the format gets tweaked between versions.

--
Mark Morgan Lloyd
markMLl .AT. telemetry.co .DOT. uk

[Opinions above are the author's, not those of his employers or colleagues]
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Re: OT a bit - Planet Object Pascal

Tomas Hajny-2
In reply to this post by Rainer Stratmann
On Mon, February 18, 2013 01:40, Rainer Stratmann wrote:

> Am Sunday 17 February 2013 18:45:50 schrieb Florian Klämpfl:
>> Am 17.02.2013 18:10, schrieb ik:
>> > Nice, Pascal is at the same level of usage and exposure as gcc, Linux
>> > kernel and llvm,
>>
>> And you think some fancy webpage filled with java script (which is
>> turned off in my browser) would change this?
>
> In my opinion it would be ok to make the webpage a little bit more
> eyecandy.
> That can be done also without java script(!)
>
> http://de.wiktionary.org/wiki/Das_Auge_isst_mit
> (only in german)

Sure. There has been a similar discussion not such a long time ago. If
someone volunteers to design something more eyecandy (stressing the word
"design", i.e. the point should not be in proposals for switching to some
complicated tools requiring a lot of effort to keep the things working),
we will certainly consider such a (visual) change.


>> > Look at:
>> >
>> > http://ruby-doc.org/
>> > http://www.python.org/doc/
>> > ...
>> >
>> > Should I continue, or do you get my point ?
>>
>> Yes, I got it: you compare fpc docs written by a few people in their
>> spare leisure time with docs written and maintaned mainly by multi
>> billion companies existing for decades.
>
> It would be also ok to have the possibility to donate the fpc project.
> But some time ago you refused this because you feel too much pressure
> (responsible) then.

This comment misses the point, I'm afraid. If you propose creating and
managing a non-profit organization which collects the donations and hires
some (additional) people for blogging, creating more examples, documenting
packages not documented yet, etc. (mostly hiring people interested in
doing such stuff and thus applying for such jobs), you're welcome to do
so. If you propose that people who decided working on FPC as their hobby
(in their leisure time) instead of creating a commercial company and
trying to make money for living out of it should collect donations for
doing something they don't like doing, it makes no sense.

Tomas



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Re: OT a bit - Planet Object Pascal

vfclists .
In reply to this post by Graeme Geldenhuys-3
On 18 February 2013 11:19, Graeme Geldenhuys <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 2013-02-17 13:40, Frank Church wrote:
>>
>> My beef is mostly with Lazarus developers. They are more at fault here
>> as a lot of the new features which make a good difference to
>> productivity tend go unannounced or unnoticed.
>
> That's why I created the following wiki page... for exactly that reason.
> I spent lots of hours searching the repository history, matching
> features to dates and releases. I stopped doing it since just before the
> v1.0 release.
>
>   http://wiki.freepascal.org/New_IDE_features_since
>

This is a very useful page. I didn't know that Lazarus was that well featured.

I noticed the Editor Toolbar feature (implemented in v0.9.24
(2007-11-05) ) and installed the package, but I can't see any menu
option to configure it.
What steps to I follow?

> The whole point of that wiki page was also to use animated gifs to
> visually show a feature - instead of reading a long and boring list of text.
>
> Maybe such a wiki page could also be created for LCL. But this is all a
> discussion that belongs in the lazarus mailing list.
>
> Regards,
>   - Graeme -
>
> --
> fpGUI Toolkit - a cross-platform GUI toolkit using Free Pascal
> http://fpgui.sourceforge.net/
>
> _______________________________________________
> fpc-pascal maillist  -  [hidden email]
> http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal



--
Frank Church

=======================
http://devblog.brahmancreations.com
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Re: OT a bit - Planet Object Pascal

wkitty42
In reply to this post by Florian Klaempfl
On 2/18/2013 02:40, Florian Klämpfl wrote:

>
>
> waldo kitty<[hidden email]>  schrieb:
>
>> On 2/17/2013 14:35, Florian Klämpfl wrote:
>>> Am 17.02.2013 20:31, schrieb Frank Church:
>>>> One more thing lest I forget. The official FPC documentation is very
>>>> good, especially for documents created by volunteers and hobbyists.
>>>> That it is not accompanied by examples
>>>
>>> c:\fpc\docs>dir ex*.pp /s | grep -c ex
>>> 668
>>>
>>> What do I miss?
>>
>> they are not /in/ the documentation
>
> They are...

i'll have to look again... i honestly haven't seen them listed in any of the
documentation pages i've printed...

but perhaps we're also speaking of semantics? i will go back and look further...
my apologies if i'm incorrect and the sources with explanations are actually in
the pages i've not printed...
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Re: OT a bit - Planet Object Pascal

zaher dirkey
In reply to this post by vfclists .

On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 10:26 PM, Frank Church <[hidden email]> wrote:
This is a very useful page. I didn't know that Lazarus was that well featured.


Yes, we didn't know that, that is the problem, there is no good map in that jungle. ​


Best Regards
Zaher Dirkey

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Re: OT a bit - Planet Object Pascal

Graeme Geldenhuys-3
In reply to this post by vfclists .
On 2013-02-18 20:26, Frank Church wrote:
> What steps to I follow?

Install the package and recompile the IDE - as with any IDE plugin. The
empty editor toolbar should appear in the Editor Window. Only two
buttons should exist. "Configure" - the left most button, as can be seen
from the screenshot. And the "Jump To" dropdown button, which allows you
to jump to various places in the source code.

Click the Configure button, open the "IDEMainWindow" tree node. Navigate
to the features you want in the toolbar. Select it, and press the "right
arrow button".

For some reason, not all available actions work via the editor toolbar,
but most from the "IDEMainWindow" does. The editor toolbar configuration
will be stored in a separate XML file in your Lazarus config directory -
making it easy to share with others.


Regards,
  - Graeme -

--
fpGUI Toolkit - a cross-platform GUI toolkit using Free Pascal
http://fpgui.sourceforge.net/

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Re: OT a bit - Planet Object Pascal

Martin Frb
In reply to this post by zaher dirkey
On 19/02/2013 09:43, Zaher Dirkey wrote:

On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 10:26 PM, Frank Church <[hidden email]> wrote:
This is a very useful page. I didn't know that Lazarus was that well featured.


Yes, we didn't know that, that is the problem, there is no good map in that jungle. ​


Here is another page, not as many pictures, but a good list of useful features: http://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/Lazarus_IDE_Tools

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Re: OT a bit - Planet Object Pascal

zaher dirkey

On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 1:31 PM, Martin <[hidden email]> wrote:

Here is another page, not as many pictures, but a good list of useful features: http://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/Lazarus_IDE_Tools

​I meant we need recategory this articles under a good index/tree, so we can start from home index to discover the wiki.​

Best Regards
Zaher Dirkey

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Re: OT a bit - Planet Object Pascal

Martin Frb
On 19/02/2013 13:21, Zaher Dirkey wrote:

On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 1:31 PM, Martin <[hidden email]> wrote:

Here is another page, not as many pictures, but a good list of useful features: http://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/Lazarus_IDE_Tools

​I meant we need recategory this articles under a good index/tree, so we can start from home index to discover the wiki.​


At some time, I stumbled over this: http://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/Alternative_Main_Page

I don't know if there are any plans, to merge that with the current main page. IMHO it provides a good overview, but it would need some of the text from the current main to be merged into.

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Re: OT a bit - Planet Object Pascal

Graeme Geldenhuys-3
On 2013-02-19 14:01, Martin wrote:
>
> At some time, I stumbled over this:
> http://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/Alternative_Main_Page

That would be a MUCH better main page. Clear topics that are easy to see
and read. It would need some minor additions, but over all, much better
than the default main page.


Regards,
  - Graeme -

--
fpGUI Toolkit - a cross-platform GUI toolkit using Free Pascal
http://fpgui.sourceforge.net/

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Re: OT a bit - Planet Object Pascal

Mark Morgan Lloyd-5
Graeme Geldenhuys wrote:
> On 2013-02-19 14:01, Martin wrote:
>> At some time, I stumbled over this:
>> http://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/Alternative_Main_Page
>
> That would be a MUCH better main page. Clear topics that are easy to see
> and read. It would need some minor additions, but over all, much better
> than the default main page.

It does appear to have quite a lot going for it.

--
Mark Morgan Lloyd
markMLl .AT. telemetry.co .DOT. uk

[Opinions above are the author's, not those of his employers or colleagues]
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