OOT: Pascal (especially FPC) on Linux community

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OOT: Pascal (especially FPC) on Linux community

Bee-6
Hi all...

Reading Linux community media (mostly lists and forums), I've seen that Pascal
language is still considered as non-serious and toyish programming language. No
wonder if Linux people hardly know about Pascal. Though they're already knew
about it, the ignore it. Besides, Pascal they knew is the old primitive Pascal
we know 20 years ago. They even can't distinguish Pascal (as the language) and
Delphi (as [object] Pascal IDE)! Poor Pascal. :(

Typical Linux people are always talking about C/C++, Python, and Java as the
chosen powerfull and unbeatable programming language for any kind of needs! No,
I don't mean to start a language flame war here. But, I think we -Pascal lovers
and developers- should enter Linux community and promote Pascal, especially our
beloved FPC.

Since UBUNTU now is the most Linux distro talked about these days, I think we
should promote our FPC in their community as well. UBUNTU web forum
(www.ubuntuforums.org) may become a good start. :)

Let's do it! :)

Regards,

-Bee-

has Bee.ography at:
http://beeography.modblog.com

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Re: OOT: Pascal (especially FPC) on Linux community

Adriaan van Os-2
Bisma Jayadi wrote:

> Hi all...
>
> Reading Linux community media (mostly lists and forums), I've seen
> that Pascal language is still considered as non-serious and toyish
> programming language. No wonder if Linux people hardly know about
> Pascal. Though they're already knew about it, the ignore it. Besides,
> Pascal they knew is the old primitive Pascal we know 20 years ago.
> They even can't distinguish Pascal (as the language) and Delphi (as
> [object] Pascal IDE)! Poor Pascal. :(
>
> Typical Linux people are always talking about C/C++, Python, and Java
> as the chosen powerfull and unbeatable programming language for any
> kind of needs! No, I don't mean to start a language flame war here.
> But, I think we -Pascal lovers and developers- should enter Linux
> community and promote Pascal, especially our beloved FPC.

You are contributing to this nonsense talk yourself by stating that
Pascal 20 years ago was primitive.

(sigh)

Adriaan van Os

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Re: OOT: Pascal (especially FPC) on Linux community

L505
In reply to this post by Bee-6
> Hi all...
>
> Reading Linux community media (mostly lists and forums), I've seen that Pascal
> language is still considered as non-serious and toyish programming language. No
> wonder if Linux people hardly know about Pascal. Though they're already knew
> about it, the ignore it. Besides, Pascal they knew is the old primitive Pascal
> we know 20 years ago. They even can't distinguish Pascal (as the language) and
> Delphi (as [object] Pascal IDE)! Poor Pascal. :(
>
> Typical Linux people are always talking about C/C++, Python, and Java as the
> chosen powerfull and unbeatable programming language for any kind of needs! No,
> I don't mean to start a language flame war here. But, I think we -Pascal lovers
> and developers- should enter Linux community and promote Pascal, especially our
> beloved FPC.
>
> Since UBUNTU now is the most Linux distro talked about these days, I think we
> should promote our FPC in their community as well. UBUNTU web forum
> (www.ubuntuforums.org) may become a good start. :)
>
> Let's do it! :)
>

On my local Linux user group I mention Pascal and speak up about it once in a while
(not in a zealot way, just once in a while). Some of them thought that Pascal was the
same now as it was back when they took it in university, i.e. no Units, no
ansistrings, no ability to use include files, etc. etc.
But if you speak up about things and mention that your website is programmed in it or
that Total Commander program was built in Pascal, or that Macromedia used Pascal for
one of their software applications, etc. etc.
There are times when it is constructive to speak up rather than keep quiet. Bisma you
know this I was just posting this message to encourage others..
The fact is if you join a local linux group or a linux list that isn't even local,
you will still have some sort of influence. A lot of people start programming based
on word of mouth (or try new languages based on word of mouth).

Lars


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Re: OOT: Pascal (especially FPC) on Linux community

Ron Weidner
In reply to this post by Bee-6
[Quote]

Typical Linux people are always talking about C/C++,
Python, and Java as the chosen powerfull and
unbeatable programming language for any kind of needs!
No, I don't mean to start a language flame war here.
But, I think we -Pascal lovers and developers- should
enter Linux community and promote Pascal, especially
our beloved FPC.

Since UBUNTU now is the most Linux distro talked about
these days, I think we should promote our FPC in their
community as well. UBUNTU web forum
(www.ubuntuforums.org) may become a good start. :)

[/Quote]

Although I agree that FPC could benefit from a
stronger community, I would suggest that Linux could
be the major benefactor.  I won’t elaborate as this
would just lead to flame wars.  

That said, how to promote FPC is the question?  Well
the best way, I think, is to write something great and
high profile in FPC.  For that, I would suggest
turning to game programming as a potential attention
getter.  Linux, in general, lacks in games compared to
MS or even Apple.  So there is a lot of opportunity
here.  Additionally, much of the software needs of
today (especially in terms of desktop applications)
have already been addressed.  So game programming is
left being one of few areas where new and creative
ideas can shine.

So, if you really want to promote FPC, try teaming up
with a few good programmers and artists to write the
next cool game in FPC.  If you are not the creative
type, try one of the following ideas…

* Provide an Allegro FPC wrapper

* Provide a "native" FPC GUI/IO library… (see
FreeBASIC for a reference)

* Provide a "native" GUI for FPC (maybe by
porting/extending CGUI?)

* Port FPC to GP2X (http://www.gbax.com/ -- it’s much
easier to be the big fish in a small pond)



--
Ronald Weidner
http://www.techport80.com
PHP Software developer for hire.

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Re: OOT: Pascal (especially FPC) on Linux community

Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho
> So, if you really want to promote FPC, try teaming up
> with a few good programmers and artists to write the
> next cool game in FPC.

I have to agree. Good games in Linux are really lacking or very hard
to install / use.

> * Provide a "native" FPC GUI/IO library… (see
> FreeBASIC for a reference)
>
> * Provide a "native" GUI for FPC (maybe by
> porting/extending CGUI?)

It has both. It´s called Lazarus.

http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/

--
Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho

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Re: OOT: Pascal (especially FPC) on Linux community

Martin Schreiber
In reply to this post by Ron Weidner
On Sunday 29 January 2006 19.04, Ron Weidner wrote:

> * Provide a "native" GUI for FPC (maybe by
> porting/extending CGUI?)
>

There is MSEide + MSEgui:

http://mypage.bluewin.ch/msegui/

Martin
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Re: OOT: Pascal (especially FPC) on Linux community

Ron Weidner
>
> > * Provide a "native" GUI for FPC (maybe by
> > porting/extending CGUI?)
> >
>
> There is MSEide + MSEgui:
>

This looks like what I was talking about.  I haven't
spent more than 10 minutes with it yet but so far it
looks good.

FPC might already run on the GP2X.  It's an ARM based
console running Linux so... it's possible.

I might have spoken too soon about porting Allegro as
well.  Although, I feel it's a great and usefull tool,
FPC already has PTCP which can be found here.

http://ptcpas.sourceforge.net/

That said, there is really nothing stoping someone
from writting a cool, cross-platform, game in FPC.  If
you would like to use OpenGL FPC can do that too.
Here are tutorials...

http://www.friends-of-fpc.org/tutorials/graphics/dlx_ogl/
http://fpc.wz.cz/html/index.php

and of course FPC comes with OpenGL examples.

Of course every game needs sound.  And there is no
better way to provide it than the open OGG sound
format.  It's better than MP3 with no royalties or
commercial licenses.

http://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/index.php/ACS

So, if someone wants to increase the popularity of
FPC, the tools are all there.  

PTCP    -- Keyboard, mouse, and joystick i/o.  2d GFX
and hi res timers.

OpenGL  -- 'nuff said. :)
 
ACS     -- Sound in many formats including OGG

Network -- Well, I haven't looked too hard yet but I'm
sure there is a cross-platform TCP/IP tool set out
there somewhere for FPC.  If not, I know there is for
C that could be ported or wrapped.  

All that's needed is a game development team and a
cool idea.  If you want to join a new game development
team, there is no better time than now.  I can provide
some web hosting for a small team, email addresses,
forums, etc.  I could help promote FPC based game
products.  Oh yeah, I can also contribute code and
maybe a little art.

What can you do?            



--
Ronald Weidner
http://www.techport80.com
PHP Software developer for hire.

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Re: OOT: Pascal (especially FPC) on Linux community

L505


> What can you do?            

program the website in pascal

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Re: OOT: Pascal (especially FPC) on Linux community

Kornel Kisielewicz
In reply to this post by Ron Weidner
Ron Weidner napisał(a):
>>> * Provide a "native" GUI for FPC (maybe by
>>> porting/extending CGUI?)
>>>
>> There is MSEide + MSEgui:
>>
> That said, there is really nothing stoping someone
> from writting a cool, cross-platform, game in FPC.  If
> you would like to use OpenGL FPC can do that too.

I'll try, but it'll take some time ;-).

> Of course every game needs sound.  And there is no
> better way to provide it than the open OGG sound
> format.  It's better than MP3 with no royalties or
> commercial licenses.

Yeah, that's good.

> PTCP    -- Keyboard, mouse, and joystick i/o.  2d GFX
> and hi res timers.
> OpenGL  -- 'nuff said. :)
> ACS     -- Sound in many formats including OGG

You forgot(?) to mention two important game-helping libraries:
OpenAL and SDL. Personally I much prefer SDL over Allegro -- seems more
tidy to me (although that's my personal opinion -- don't want to start a
flamewar here ^_^).

http://sourceforge.net/projects/jedi-sdl/

> Network -- Well, I haven't looked too hard yet but I'm
> sure there is a cross-platform TCP/IP tool set out
> there somewhere for FPC.  If not, I know there is for
> C that could be ported or wrapped.  

SDL-Net is one example.

> All that's needed is a game development team and a
> cool idea.  If you want to join a new game development
> team, there is no better time than now.  I can provide
> some web hosting for a small team, email addresses,
> forums, etc.  I could help promote FPC based game
> products.  Oh yeah, I can also contribute code and
> maybe a little art.
>
> What can you do?            

I can do exactly the same ;-). I also have a cool idea of a game I'm
going to create (no, not a roguelike again), but I'm too much of a
visionare to work with a team -- I have a realy strong sense of what the
game should look like.


And remember ...
http://www.pascalgamedevelopment.com/
... and the PGD Annual Game Development Competition!

(I can't take part due to my exam session :-( )
--
At your service,
Kornel Kisielewicz (adminATchaosforge.org) [http://chaosforge.org]
"11 years and no binary. And it's not vapourware" -- Igor Savin
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Re: OOT: Pascal (especially FPC) on Linux community

Bugzilla from elio@mixtk.com
Actually i'm a developer in the SDL4FreePascal project, which as the name
sugest, is a port of SDL headers to FreePascal. So far they work good and we
will realease a new version soon.

http://sdl4fp.sourceforge.net/

Aditionally to SDL, we are also porting other useful libraries like SDL_Image
and SDL_ttf. We could port SDL_Net too if there's interest.

I'm myself creating a game in FreePascal, but there's nothing to show yet. And
there's already some good games written in FreePascal, just have to look a
little hard.

It would be cool if we could create a comunity of game creation in
[Free]Pascal.

Hoping to see your FPC games soon.

El Lun 30 Ene 2006 12:52, Kornel Kisielewicz escribió:

> Ron Weidner napisał(a):
> >>> * Provide a "native" GUI for FPC (maybe by
> >>> porting/extending CGUI?)
> >>
> >> There is MSEide + MSEgui:
> >
> > That said, there is really nothing stoping someone
> > from writting a cool, cross-platform, game in FPC.  If
> > you would like to use OpenGL FPC can do that too.
>
> I'll try, but it'll take some time ;-).
>
> > Of course every game needs sound.  And there is no
> > better way to provide it than the open OGG sound
> > format.  It's better than MP3 with no royalties or
> > commercial licenses.
>
> Yeah, that's good.
>
> > PTCP    -- Keyboard, mouse, and joystick i/o.  2d GFX
> > and hi res timers.
> > OpenGL  -- 'nuff said. :)
> > ACS     -- Sound in many formats including OGG
>
> You forgot(?) to mention two important game-helping libraries:
> OpenAL and SDL. Personally I much prefer SDL over Allegro -- seems more
> tidy to me (although that's my personal opinion -- don't want to start a
> flamewar here ^_^).
>
> http://sourceforge.net/projects/jedi-sdl/
>
> > Network -- Well, I haven't looked too hard yet but I'm
> > sure there is a cross-platform TCP/IP tool set out
> > there somewhere for FPC.  If not, I know there is for
> > C that could be ported or wrapped.
>
> SDL-Net is one example.
>
> > All that's needed is a game development team and a
> > cool idea.  If you want to join a new game development
> > team, there is no better time than now.  I can provide
> > some web hosting for a small team, email addresses,
> > forums, etc.  I could help promote FPC based game
> > products.  Oh yeah, I can also contribute code and
> > maybe a little art.
> >
> > What can you do?
>
> I can do exactly the same ;-). I also have a cool idea of a game I'm
> going to create (no, not a roguelike again), but I'm too much of a
> visionare to work with a team -- I have a realy strong sense of what the
> game should look like.
>
>
> And remember ...
> http://www.pascalgamedevelopment.com/
> ... and the PGD Annual Game Development Competition!
>
> (I can't take part due to my exam session :-( )
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Re: OOT: Pascal (especially FPC) on Linux community

Ron Weidner
In reply to this post by L505

>
> > What can you do?            
>
> program the website in pascal
>

If you really want the job that would be great.  I was
going to work on that myself but, I would have done it
in PHP.  But, since you are willing to write the site
using FPC, I would be willing to set up hosting (Unix)
and a domain name. (or just a domain name if you
already have hosting).

Are you thinking about a community website?  (forums,
showcase, calendar, etc)  Would you need a particular
Database?  sqlite, mySql, postgres?

--
Ronald Weidner
http://www.techport80.com
PHP Software developer for hire.

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Re: OOT: Pascal (especially FPC) on Linux community

L505
> If you really want the job that would be great.  I was
> going to work on that myself but, I would have done it
> in PHP.  But, since you are willing to write the site
> using FPC, I would be willing to set up hosting (Unix)
> and a domain name. (or just a domain name if you
> already have hosting).

> Are you thinking about a community website?  (forums,
> showcase, calendar, etc)  Would you need a particular
> Database?  sqlite, mySql, postgres?

If the site got bigger, probably mysql. To start off, we can use a nice text database
format called SDS from psp project which relies on no external database, and is great
for starter sites who think they need a real database but not sure they want to
commit to one. It as full capabilities to export to SQL later if the site gets bigger
:) I guess they call this "scaling" and "backwards/forwards compatibility".

As for you going to do the development in PHP? Instead, I would force you to help me
in Pascal :)
And then I would go about changing your email signature to this:

--
Ronald Weidner
http://www.techport80.com
PHP/PSP Software developer for hire.


And mine to this:

--
Lars (L505)
PHP/PSP Software developer for hire.


Hit two birds with one stone:
 FPC gaming + FPC website development

instead of
 FPC gaming + PHP website development


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Re: OOT: Pascal (especially FPC) on Linux community

Ron Weidner
In reply to this post by Bugzilla from elio@mixtk.com
--- Elio Cuevas Gómez <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Actually i'm a developer in the SDL4FreePascal
> project, which as the name sugest, is a port of SDL
> headers to FreePascal. So far they work good and we
> will realease a new version soon.
>
> http://sdl4fp.sourceforge.net/
>
> Aditionally to SDL, we are also porting other useful
> libraries like SDL_Image and SDL_ttf. We could port
> SDL_Net too if there's interest.
>

Sorry, I actually forgot about the freepascal port of
the SDL lib.  That said, I think that SDL is one of
the best tools out there for developing games and
deserved mentioning.  In any case, I can say for
myself, that I would be interested in and SDL_Image,
SDL_ttf and SDL_Net port.  But I would also like to
see some more examples/demos too.  So, I'll start
sending some demos to the project today.  I have a
few.  :)

> I'm myself creating a game in FreePascal, but
> there's nothing to show yet. And there's already
> some good games written in FreePascal, just have
> to look a little hard.
>

Anyone with a FreePascal game please e-mail me a link,
description, hardware requirements, and target OS
information and I will link to it from
http://www.astrodust.com.  I'll be resurrecting that
site and I would love to trade links.

> It would be cool if we could create a community of
> game creation in [Free]Pascal.
>

I agree... And there are many tasks not related to
game play that someone could do even if they feel that
game development isn't an avenue they would like to
pursue.  And if you are the creative type, obviously
there is a lot of opportunity for you too.  Math,
database, art, music, beta/alpha testing, UI,
compression, encryption, are just some of the areas
you could be helpful in, even if you aren't interested
in creating a game.  Although, I hope that there are 4
people here interested in being the core of an indie
FreePascal game development team.  

If you are interested, please contact me and we can
all start planning a new game.  



--
Ronald Weidner
http://www.techport80.com
PHP Software developer for hire.

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Re: OOT: Pascal (especially FPC) on Linux community

Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho
Hello,

> Sorry, I actually forgot about the freepascal port of
> the SDL lib.  That said, I think that SDL is one of
> the best tools out there for developing games and
> deserved mentioning.  In any case, I can say for
> myself, that I would be interested in and SDL_Image,
> SDL_ttf and SDL_Net port.  But I would also like to
> see some more examples/demos too.  So, I'll start
> sending some demos to the project today.  I have a
> few.  :)

I am using Jedi SDL. It has headers for SDL_ttf, SDL_net, SDL_Image,
and everything else. Works really well.

Yesterday I did this SDL tutorial:
http://lazyfooproductions.com/SDL_tutorials/index.php
just adapting to pascal.


SDL is really easy. Much easier then DirectX. It also has a really
small library (600kb) and is very portable.

> Anyone with a FreePascal game please e-mail me a link,
> description, hardware requirements, and target OS

I am writing a Civilization-like game.

I started this project many years ago and it was quite advanced. But
back then I wrote it on Delphi, using DelphiX interface for DirectX
and MS Access as database.

It´s just too much work to adapt it, so I am re-writting on: Lazarus,
Jedi SDL and SQLite.

It´s not FreeCiv. I want to do something much better looking and add
many interresting concepts. I would like at the same time, to capture
the civilization playing fealing, and try to do a realist simulation
of ruling an empire.

I started today the rewrite. Here is the first screenshot of the map:
http://www.braillevirtual.fe.usp.br/temporario/isometric.PNG

I will be using Lazarus forms to speed up dialog building and use SDL
for the game itself.

I have access to many really great 16mm movies about WW 2, so I may
even digitalize them and include them on a WW 2 scenario.

It has no name for now, but as a codename it can be called OpenCiv.

Hardware requirements: 16MB of RAM probably just that

Target OS: Every OS supported by Lazarus =)

> information and I will link to it from
> http://www.astrodust.com.  I'll be resurrecting that
> site and I would love to trade links.

About the website, is it about a specific genre of games or a general
gaming website?

If it´s a general website, I would sujest that you add things like:

* Forum for discussion

* Wiki for pascal gamming tutorials

> Although, I hope that there are 4
> people here interested in being the core of an indie
> FreePascal game development team.

What is an "indie" game?

thanks,
--
Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho
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Re: OOT: Pascal (especially FPC) on Linux community

Ron Weidner
>
> Yesterday I did this SDL tutorial:
>
http://lazyfooproductions.com/SDL_tutorials/index.php
> just adapting to pascal.
>

Do you mean that you wrote this tutorial or that you
are adapting it to FreePascal or something else?

>
> SDL is really easy. Much easier then DirectX. It
> also has a really small library (600kb) and is very
portable.
>
> I am writing a Civilization-like game.
>

>
http://www.braillevirtual.fe.usp.br/temporario/isometric.PNG
>
> I will be using Lazarus forms to speed up dialog
> building and use SDL for the game itself.
>

I'm really looking forward to seeing the game.  I've
been thinking of doing an isometric game soon.  In
fact, I was planning to suggest to anyone considering
joining a game development team that the first game we
create would be a tile based jump-and-run (small game
-- 45 days max) followed by an isometric tile based
game (larger game -- 6 month commitment).

> About the website, is it about a specific genre of
> games or a general gaming website?
>
> If it's a general website, I would suggest that you
> add things like:
>
> * Forum for discussion
>
> * Wiki for pascal gaming tutorials
>

It's a general website for games with all the
community tools you've mentioned, and more :) . The
site that you see there now is very old.  Behind the
scene there is a new and much improved site.  I'll be
releasing that one soon.  It will have games for sale
and for free and links to indie game developers
websites, as well as game programming information
using open source tools.  (initially Allegro and SDL)
It's actually, quite impressive and I'm looking
forward to the day when I can release it.  But, that's
a bit off topic even for a topic marked off topic.  

> > Although, I hope that there are 4
> > people here interested in being the core of an
> > indie FreePascal game development team.
>
> What is an "indie" game?
>

An "indie game developer" is a single person or small
group of people writing games.  They are usually on a
limited budget with limited resources.  But, since
they usually don't have a reputation yet, they are
free to explore new games and genres.  So, an indie
game is a game written by an indie game developer.

http://www.garagegames.com often host many such games.





--
Ronald Weidner
http://www.techport80.com
PHP Software developer for hire.

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