Maybe a new fpc book :)

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Maybe a new fpc book :)

Anthony W. Henry
I recently responded to a question on the community board
asking about an fpc book by recommending a Turbo Pascal
book by Jeff Duntemann.  His book started me out as a Pascal
programmer in 1989 and I still find these old books useful from
time to time.  

   I have two by him:
        Turbo Pascal from Square One
        The Complete Borland Pascal

  Mr. Duntemann has also written other programming books and
was employed by Borland for a while as a technical writer.  I have
found his books to be the best available for learning Pascal.  

  When I responded to the board question it started a train of
thought that resulted me in contacting Mr. Duntemann about writing
a book on FPC.   To my (pleased) surprise I found him provisionally
enthusiastic for the project.(He hasn't made his mind up yet).

He has the following questions for the community.
                POSTED WITH HIS PERMISSION.
               
                1. What OS is most-used for Free Pascal? Windows? Linux?
               
                2. What libraries do most people use for console (i.e.,
                "terminal" or text-mode) apps? I dislike ncurses; is
                there a better way?
               
                3. Does anybody really use Free Pascal to write Win32
                apps?
               
                4. Do people make heavy use of Free Pascal objects?
               
                These are important questions, because I want to bring
                newcomers up to speed with the tools and OSes they're
                most likely to use as they get better.
               
                I will probably release the rewritten book as a free
                ebook, and offer printed copies of the book through
                Lulu.com, where I publish a number of other things now.
                See:
               
                http://www.lulu.com/copperwood
               
                I don't expect to make much money on the project; I made
                my money on the book back in 1993 when it was first run.
                I love Pascal and would like to see my book still
                available to Pascal people.

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Re: Maybe a new fpc book :)

Anthony W. Henry
I missed one. Mr. Duntemann closed with this question:

What forum would be best for me to join to discuss how to rewrite the
book for FP?


Anthony


On Wed, 2008-01-02 at 12:35 -0500, Anthony W. Henry wrote:

> I recently responded to a question on the community board
> asking about an fpc book by recommending a Turbo Pascal
> book by Jeff Duntemann.  His book started me out as a Pascal
> programmer in 1989 and I still find these old books useful from
> time to time.  
>
>    I have two by him:
>         Turbo Pascal from Square One
>         The Complete Borland Pascal
>
>   Mr. Duntemann has also written other programming books and
> was employed by Borland for a while as a technical writer.  I have
> found his books to be the best available for learning Pascal.  
>
>   When I responded to the board question it started a train of
> thought that resulted me in contacting Mr. Duntemann about writing
> a book on FPC.   To my (pleased) surprise I found him provisionally
> enthusiastic for the project.(He hasn't made his mind up yet).
>
> He has the following questions for the community.
>                 POSTED WITH HIS PERMISSION.
>                
>                 1. What OS is most-used for Free Pascal? Windows? Linux?
>                
>                 2. What libraries do most people use for console (i.e.,
>                 "terminal" or text-mode) apps? I dislike ncurses; is
>                 there a better way?
>                
>                 3. Does anybody really use Free Pascal to write Win32
>                 apps?
>                
>                 4. Do people make heavy use of Free Pascal objects?
>                
>                 These are important questions, because I want to bring
>                 newcomers up to speed with the tools and OSes they're
>                 most likely to use as they get better.
>                
>                 I will probably release the rewritten book as a free
>                 ebook, and offer printed copies of the book through
>                 Lulu.com, where I publish a number of other things now.
>                 See:
>                
>                 http://www.lulu.com/copperwood
>                
>                 I don't expect to make much money on the project; I made
>                 my money on the book back in 1993 when it was first run.
>                 I love Pascal and would like to see my book still
>                 available to Pascal people.
>
> _______________________________________________
> fpc-pascal maillist  -  [hidden email]
> http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal

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Re: Maybe a new fpc book :)

Bee-6
In reply to this post by Anthony W. Henry
> He has the following questions for the community.

Since I feel as being part of the community, I'd like to answer. :)

> 1. What OS is most-used for Free Pascal? Windows? Linux?

For me... 80% Linux, 20% Windows, 0% MacOS. But this will change if I
got a MacBook, perhaps I'll have 20% usage on this OS. :-D

> 2. What libraries do most people use for console (i.e.,
> "terminal" or text-mode) apps? I dislike ncurses; is
> there a better way?

For console app, I used basic CRT unit provided by FPC.

> 3. Does anybody really use Free Pascal to write Win32
> apps?

I do. I never wrote console app on win32 using fpc, but I wrote some GUI
apps on win32 using Lazarus which is powered by fpc. ;)

> 4. Do people make heavy use of Free Pascal objects?

Does 'objects' here refer to object oriented programming or refer to
TP's style class? If it means OOP, then I do make heavy use of OOP in
FPC, especially the FCL. It it means the last, then I no longer touch
this object paradigm since I used Delphi. ;)

> These are important questions, because I want to bring
> newcomers up to speed with the tools and OSes they're
> most likely to use as they get better.

Hope this would help. :)

-Bee-

has Bee.ography at:
http://beeography.wordpress.com

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Re: Maybe a new fpc book :)

Bee-6
In reply to this post by Anthony W. Henry
> What forum would be best for me to join to discuss how to rewrite the
> book for FP?

This list, no? :-D

-Bee-

has Bee.ography at:
http://beeography.wordpress.com

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Re: Maybe a new fpc book :)

Anthony W. Henry

On Thu, 2008-01-03 at 01:17 +0700, Bee wrote:
> > What forum would be best for me to join to discuss how to rewrite the
> > book for FP?
>
> This list, no? :-D
>
> -Bee-

   I suggested this too.  This is all really fast (just a couple of
days) and he is not making a commitment yet.  I don't want to scare him
off :).


Thanks for your answers.  I'm going to wait until I get a few more
before forwarding them to Mr. Duntemann.

Anthony

>
> has Bee.ography at:
> http://beeography.wordpress.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> fpc-pascal maillist  -  [hidden email]
> http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal

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Re: Maybe a new fpc book :)

Michael Van Canneyt
In reply to this post by Anthony W. Henry


On Wed, 2 Jan 2008, Anthony W. Henry wrote:

> I recently responded to a question on the community board
> asking about an fpc book by recommending a Turbo Pascal
> book by Jeff Duntemann.  His book started me out as a Pascal
> programmer in 1989 and I still find these old books useful from
> time to time.  
>
>    I have two by him:
>         Turbo Pascal from Square One
>         The Complete Borland Pascal
>
>   Mr. Duntemann has also written other programming books and
> was employed by Borland for a while as a technical writer.  I have
> found his books to be the best available for learning Pascal.  
>
>   When I responded to the board question it started a train of
> thought that resulted me in contacting Mr. Duntemann about writing
> a book on FPC.   To my (pleased) surprise I found him provisionally
> enthusiastic for the project.(He hasn't made his mind up yet).
>
> He has the following questions for the community.
>                 POSTED WITH HIS PERMISSION.
>                
>                 1. What OS is most-used for Free Pascal? Windows? Linux?

If I remember the download statistics correctly:
Windows comes first and then Linux.

>                
>                 2. What libraries do most people use for console (i.e.,
>                 "terminal" or text-mode) apps? I dislike ncurses; is
>                 there a better way?

You can use crt or the video unit provided by FPC.
You have Free Vision, the Free Pascal port of the old turbo vision.

>                
>                 3. Does anybody really use Free Pascal to write Win32
>                 apps?

Sure. Some people use it to create their flagship applications.

                 
>                 4. Do people make heavy use of Free Pascal objects?

I think this depends on the definition of objects:
The Old TP-Style: probably not any more, or very limited at any rate.
The new Delphi style: Yes, it is heavily used.

As for information: he can always join this list or the lazarus list.

Michael.
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Re: Maybe a new fpc book :)

Johann Glaser
Hi!

> >                 1. What OS is most-used for Free Pascal? Windows? Linux?
>
> If I remember the download statistics correctly:
> Windows comes first and then Linux.

I want to note that mostly all Windows users download FreePascal and
Lazarus by their own from the original download servers. OTOH many Linux
users get FreePascal via their distribution. At least Debian provides
packages, but I assume some other distributions too.

So it all is about the "invisible" Linux downloaders. Do they really
exist? Or do they update so regularly that they don't want to rely on
their distribution?

Bye
  Hansi


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Re: Maybe a new fpc book :)

Graeme Geldenhuys-2
In reply to this post by Anthony W. Henry
>
>                 1. What OS is most-used for Free Pascal? Windows? Linux?

We (our company) mainly develop under Linux, but all products are for
both Linux and Windows platforms.

>                 2. What libraries do most people use for console (i.e.,
>                 "terminal" or text-mode) apps? I dislike ncurses; is
>                 there a better way?

I only write small console based utility apps.  Mainly for debuging or
prototyping some concept. writeln() is my friend. :)


>                 3. Does anybody really use Free Pascal to write Win32
>                 apps?

Linux and Windows are equally important to us for GUI apps.  Though we
(our company) are having more and more talks about phasing our
franchises over to Linux.  Stability, money and no viruses are the
main reasons.


>                 4. Do people make heavy use of Free Pascal objects?

If that referres to classes as in OOP then YES.

>                 I will probably release the rewritten book as a free
>                 ebook, and offer printed copies of the book through

That would be awesome...


Regards,
  - Graeme -


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Re: Maybe a new fpc book :)

Graeme Geldenhuys-2
In reply to this post by Johann Glaser
On 02/01/2008, Johann Glaser <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> So it all is about the "invisible" Linux downloaders.

I agree...plus the Linux downloads are split into lots of small
packages, were the Windows download is one file.  This is also what
drives me mad about companies publishing the populaty of OSes based on
sales or whatever else (I mention no names.. :)  ).  Linux has a huge
"invisible" community because we are allowed to distribute copies
legally and get them from all over the internet without payment.
Windows OS copies are much easier to track because they have to be
bought and registered.

I'm going a bit off-topic here, sorry.  But again, Linux users can now
get copies via 'apt'.  Then what about the loads of people using 'svn'
to keep up to date.  I think I've only downloaded one copy of FPC for
Windows and Linux, but have been keeping up to date via svn for the
last 3 years.  I don't think we will every be able to give a accurate
count per OS.


Regards,
  - Graeme -


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Re: Maybe a new fpc book :)

DONALD PEDDER
In reply to this post by Anthony W. Henry
    Coming out of lurk mode...

> 1. What OS is most-used for Free Pascal? Windows? Linux?

    Well, speaking just for myself, :-) I'm still using DR-DOS (I have
Windows as well, but not by choice. Grrr - the punitive measures in the
anti-trust case didn't go far enough! I don't buy software unless I have
no choice. e.g. I have written my own programs for budgetting, stats,
etc.). Eventually I want to make some of my programs multi-platform, but
it would still be command-line based rather than windows based (graphics
just slows everything up, so unless needed... "a picture is worth a
thousand words, but it takes 10,000 times the memory").


> 2. What libraries do most people use for console (i.e., "terminal" or
> text-mode) apps? I dislike ncurses; is there a better way?

    CRT and strings, and that's about it.


> 3. Does anybody really use Free Pascal to write Win32 apps?

    Not specifically, but I try to make my DOS programs work in Windows as
well (not easy, given how much MS crippled their version of DOS - at least
one program I gave up on keeping it Windows compatible, though in future I
might make use of some multi-platform system units to help this project.
Have to face facts that most people use Windows, even if it's a really
crappy OS :-\ ).


> 4. Do people make heavy use of Free Pascal objects?

    Nope, but if it was covered in a book I might be more inclined to do
so.

    It would be good to have a more up-to-date Pascal book (there are
features in FPC which aren't in my old Pascal books. e.g. OO, strings,
passing filenames as parameters, etc.) - I'd buy a printed copy (or an
E-copy I could print).


thanks,
    DONALD.

BIG DON's Home-page  - http://jedi.apana.org.au/~jims_son
Pedder Passer Rating - http://jedi.apana.org.au/~jims_son/PPR
AusNFL mailing-list  - http://jedi.apana.org.au/mailman/listinfo/ausnfl

"What I always wanted is to be accepted, not understood" - MAN RAY
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Re: Maybe a new fpc book :)

Bugzilla from daniel.mantione@freepascal.org
In reply to this post by Graeme Geldenhuys-2


Op Wed, 2 Jan 2008, schreef Graeme Geldenhuys:

> On 02/01/2008, Johann Glaser <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> So it all is about the "invisible" Linux downloaders.
>
> I agree...plus the Linux downloads are split into lots of small
> packages, were the Windows download is one file.

I have the impression the amount of Windows users is still significantly
bigger than the amount of Linux users. However, Linux users are more
active in the community.

A good book targets both groups of users and teaches users to use
{$ifdef windows}/{$ifdef unix} where needed.

Daniël
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Re: Maybe a new fpc book :)

Bugzilla from daniel.mantione@freepascal.org
In reply to this post by Michael Van Canneyt


Op Wed, 2 Jan 2008, schreef Michael Van Canneyt:

>>                 2. What libraries do most people use for console (i.e.,
>>                 "terminal" or text-mode) apps? I dislike ncurses; is
>>                 there a better way?
>
> You can use crt or the video unit provided by FPC.
> You have Free Vision, the Free Pascal port of the old turbo vision.

Perhaps it is usefull to node him the use cases in which you would choose
what API:
* Simple text mode programming: crt
* Advanced textmode UIs: Free Vision
* Maximum flexibility: Video & keyboard units

Ncurses could be used as "the unix way", but is rather primitive
compared to FV.

>>                 3. Does anybody really use Free Pascal to write Win32
>>                 apps?
>
> Sure. Some people use it to create their flagship applications.

Indeed, but there are three categories of Win32 programs that are popular:
* LCL applications, coded through Lazarus
* Games, often using JEDI-SDL and OpenGL
* Win32 command line applications

Users from each group might be interrested to learn different things...
Users that don't belong to these groups do of course also exist.

Daniël
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Re: Maybe a new fpc book :)

Milan Marusinec
In reply to this post by Anthony W. Henry
Hello,
>                 4. Do people make heavy use of Free Pascal objects?
>                
>  

I will answer this question in the sence of meaning the object as a type
for OOP.

Recently in my two pascal projects, which by the way are relatively very
current,
I used only "objects" and not "classes". You can find those projects here:
  http://www.aggpas.org (Vector Graphics Engine, native port)
  http://www.icu4pas.org (Unicode I18N library, direct class wrapper)

Every delphi programmer would wonder why the hell to use that archaic
type, which is marked as "obsolete" in Borland documentation. But it has
a very strong technical background argument in simple fact, and that is
impossibility to allocate classes on the stack, because classes are always
allocated on the Heap. Here again delphi programmer would very very
wonder, why one would want to allocate classes on the Stack ? Answer is that
those two project are direct 1:1 ports from C/C++, where classes technically
can be on Stack and also on the Heap, and to mimic this behaviour is
possible
only when using "object" types and not "classes".

That's my two cents
Milano

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Re: Maybe a new fpc book :)

tazio mirandola
In reply to this post by Anthony W. Henry
i'm a delphi programmer and a FP beginner, it completly lacks good
books focusing on FP and LCL, the book i'm looking for:

>                 1. What OS is most-used for Free Pascal? Windows? Linux?

mostly windows, but linux and osx are important too, crossplatform
tricks are welcome.
consider FP being cross platform is a main advantage over delphi and .net

>
>                 2. What libraries do most people use for console (i.e.,
>                 "terminal" or text-mode) apps?

writeln is enough for simple personal tools, but in 2008 is hard to
sell a text-mode app, so this is not the killer library nowadays while
internet and database lib are more important for modern real projects

>                 3. Does anybody really use Free Pascal to write Win32
>                 apps?

absolutely yes, the vision behind lazarus is to replace Delphi

>                 4. Do people make heavy use of Free Pascal objects?

absolutely yes, patterns and algorithms are interesting too.

a question about the odience:
should this book be for totally beginners or for (somehow) experienced
programmers coming from others environments?
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Re: Maybe a new fpc book :)

Joost van der Sluis
In reply to this post by Anthony W. Henry
Op woensdag 02-01-2008 om 12:35 uur [tijdzone -0500], schreef Anthony W.
Henry:

> I recently responded to a question on the community board
> asking about an fpc book by recommending a Turbo Pascal
> book by Jeff Duntemann.  His book started me out as a Pascal
> programmer in 1989 and I still find these old books useful from
> time to time.  
>
>    I have two by him:
>         Turbo Pascal from Square One
>         The Complete Borland Pascal
>
>   Mr. Duntemann has also written other programming books and
> was employed by Borland for a while as a technical writer.  I have
> found his books to be the best available for learning Pascal.  
>
>   When I responded to the board question it started a train of
> thought that resulted me in contacting Mr. Duntemann about writing
> a book on FPC.   To my (pleased) surprise I found him provisionally
> enthusiastic for the project.(He hasn't made his mind up yet).

That would be PERFECT!

I've learned all I know from him!

Got his books from the library when I was 10 or so... After a while I
had to bring them back, then I had to wait for two months before I could
lend them again...

I never found a copy for myself, though...

Joost.

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Re: Maybe a new fpc book :)

Anthony W. Henry

> >   Mr. Duntemann has also written other programming books and
> > was employed by Borland for a while as a technical writer.  I have
> > found his books to be the best available for learning Pascal.  
> >
> >   When I responded to the board question it started a train of
> > thought that resulted me in contacting Mr. Duntemann about writing
> > a book on FPC.   To my (pleased) surprise I found him provisionally
> > enthusiastic for the project.(He hasn't made his mind up yet).
>
> That would be PERFECT!
>
> I've learned all I know from him!
>
> Got his books from the library when I was 10 or so... After a while I
> had to bring them back, then I had to wait for two months before I could
> lend them again...
>
> I never found a copy for myself, though...


   Mr. Duntemann's older books can still be found on amazon.

Anthony


>
> Joost.
>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: Maybe a new fpc book :)

Marco Ciampa
In reply to this post by Anthony W. Henry
I work in a high school in Italy.
We are currently using fpc + gnuplot for math and phisics simulations.
In one lab we are currently starting to use Linux as the _sole_ platform.

On Wed, Jan 02, 2008 at 12:35:57PM -0500, Anthony W. Henry wrote:
>                 1. What OS is most-used for Free Pascal? Windows? Linux?
80% windows and 20% Linux (this one growing)
                 
>                 2. What libraries do most people use for console (i.e.,
>                 "terminal" or text-mode) apps? I dislike ncurses; is
>                 there a better way?
console & graph unit (BGI drivers under windows and Linux (X _not_ VGAlib) )

>                 3. Does anybody really use Free Pascal to write Win32
>                 apps?
yes

                 
>                 4. Do people make heavy use of Free Pascal objects?
not (for now) in our school

We are currently porting several astronomical turbo pascal programs for fpc
(win and Linux)

bye

--

Marco Ciampa

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Re: Maybe a new fpc book :)

Florian Klämpfl
Marco Ciampa schrieb:

> I work in a high school in Italy.
> We are currently using fpc + gnuplot for math and phisics simulations.
> In one lab we are currently starting to use Linux as the _sole_ platform.
>
> On Wed, Jan 02, 2008 at 12:35:57PM -0500, Anthony W. Henry wrote:
>>                 1. What OS is most-used for Free Pascal? Windows? Linux?
> 80% windows and 20% Linux (this one growing)
>                  
>>                 2. What libraries do most people use for console (i.e.,
>>                 "terminal" or text-mode) apps? I dislike ncurses; is
>>                 there a better way?
> console &
> graph unit (BGI drivers under windows and Linux (X _not_ VGAlib) )

If one writes a book, _please_ use SDL for graphics and skip the legacy
graph unit :)
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Re: Maybe a new fpc book :)

Damien Gerard

On Jan 5, 2008, at 11:11 AM, Florian Klaempfl wrote:

> Marco Ciampa schrieb:
>> I work in a high school in Italy.
>> We are currently using fpc + gnuplot for math and phisics  
>> simulations.
>> In one lab we are currently starting to use Linux as the _sole_  
>> platform.
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 02, 2008 at 12:35:57PM -0500, Anthony W. Henry wrote:
>>>                1. What OS is most-used for Free Pascal? Windows?  
>>> Linux?
>> 80% windows and 20% Linux (this one growing)
>>

Not OS X at all ? I am a bit surprised.


>>>                2. What libraries do most people use for console  
>>> (i.e.,
>>>                "terminal" or text-mode) apps? I dislike ncurses; is
>>>                there a better way?
>> console &
>> graph unit (BGI drivers under windows and Linux (X _not_ VGAlib) )
>
> If one writes a book, _please_ use SDL for graphics and skip the  
> legacy
> graph unit :)

Agree :)


--
Damien Gerard
[hidden email]

People who used magic without knowing what they were doing usually  
came to a sticky end. All over the entire room, sometimes.
     -- (Terry Pratchett, Moving Pictures)



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Re: Maybe a new fpc book :)

Marco Ciampa
In reply to this post by Florian Klämpfl
On Sat, Jan 05, 2008 at 11:11:02AM +0100, Florian Klaempfl wrote:
> Marco Ciampa schrieb:
> > console &
> > graph unit (BGI drivers under windows and Linux (X _not_ VGAlib) )
>
> If one writes a book, _please_ use SDL for graphics and skip the legacy
> graph unit :)
I may agree, yes, but a simple chapter on how to port a old (and working)
Borland BGI app to fpc could be veeery useful and not harmful at all...

bye

--

Marco Ciampa

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