Lazarus vs MSEgui

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
13 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Lazarus vs MSEgui

Santiago A.
I know it is a dangerous question that can easily turn into a  holly
war, flame or whatever. But here it is.

I have only used Lazarus or a general editor (usually Jedit, geany).
Time ago I checked a little MSEgui and, well, I didn't go for it.
In MSEgui I found fonts small and interface not very nice. Beside I
found it a little confusing. Later I found that it could be compiled to
make fonts bigger etc.

The honest reality is that I didn't devote much time to evaluate it.
That's the problem of frameworks: when you learn one you get a little
married with it, there are always complains and quirks, but before
divorce you want to be sure that where you are moving to is better that
what you have now. Unfortunately, getting the pros and cons requires
working with it some time.

The first pro of MSEgui is that it is light.
In fact, That is the main pro of any thing that is not lazarus. No just
because it's lighter but because lighter usually means less complex and
less bugs.

Cons. The most important. It looks like Lazarus has more developers, so
may be a better decision for the long term.
The second is the RAD. The immediate two directions updates, from GUI to
source and from source to GUI, is very handy.

Any body has experience in both (or another IDE for FPC) and has his two
cents?

By the way, has anybody managed to debug strings.text or any property
with a getter?


--
Saludos

Santi
[hidden email]

_______________________________________________
fpc-pascal maillist  -  [hidden email]
http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Lazarus vs MSEgui

Krzysztof
I'm also learning MSEgui from a few weeks. It was very hard start but
now I love it. First what you need understand is that it is not using
any Qt, Gtk, WinAPI backend as Lazarus so you never get native OS look
but of course you can imitate it with own style. Yes, MSEgui has
styles engine. For example this is soft written in MSEgui:
http://almin-soft.ru/index.php?multimedia/xelplayer/xelplayer-screenshots
Here is demo of dark theme:
http://s14.postimg.org/qrw8tgrwx/linux.png
And default font size for all controls can be changed immedietaly at runtime:
stockobjects.fonts[stf_default].height:= 30;

They are pros and cons for Lazarus and MSEgui. I would not stuck to
the one framework. You must calculate needs for your project and
choose the one which fit
_______________________________________________
fpc-pascal maillist  -  [hidden email]
http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Lazarus vs MSEgui

Graeme Geldenhuys-6
In reply to this post by Santiago A.
On 2016-04-08 10:08, Santiago A. wrote:
> Any body has experience in both (or another IDE for FPC) and has his two
> cents?

ps:
It's MSEide - if you are refering to the IDE portion of the project. ;-)

I switch between Lazarus and MSEide very frequently. Overall I prefer
MSEide. Yes it's settings are different, but that doesn't mean bad.
Don't let habits or what you are used to detract from trying something
new. Once I got used to the MSEide way, I quite liked it a lot.

Here is my list...

Pros of MSEide:
  - better code templates
  - better debugging
  - import & export of project settings
  - macros (global and per project)
  - no use of "packages" - I found macros work much better for me.
  - it's really really fast. I also never install components in a IDE,
    so Lazarus Packages are of no use to me.
  - not too much automation. I fight more and more with Lazarus to try
    and disable automation that I don't want or like. Martin managed to
    strike the exact right balance between automated code generation,
    and the programmer doing what it loves - writing code.
  - Code navigation is not as fussy as Lazarus. eg: I have lots of code
    with include files in the head of the unit. From another project,
    Lazarus refuses to navigate that code. MSEide has no troubles.
  - It is very stable, and Martin is super fast at fixing things.
    Normally everything gets done the same day. I have no idea how he
    finds the time to manage that!!
  - Code Templates: Much better implemented than Lazarus. Separate
    files for each template (thus easy to share or update). Quick to
    configure or modify, and has all the features needed.
  - Very good cross-platform console output window support. No need to
    run apps in a separate console window, just to see output. The IDE
    does this for you across platforms and consistently.
  - Fantastic docking support. I can configure the IDE in seconds just
    the way I want - per project too. I like the small detached
    "control center" as Martin calls it - the main IDE window.

Cons of MSEide
  - some quirky behaviour in the editor, but Martin has explain his
    reasoning for some - which actually makes perfect sense.
  - Minor: Yes by default fonts are small, but again it is done to fit
    as much on the screen as posible. Simply pass a command line
    parameter to the IDE to adjust any fonts - a simple fix.
  - No code-insight (or very limited). I think that's what it is called.
    Where you type for example a . and then get a list of available
    methods pop up. My work-around is to code with DocView help viewer
    permanently open on the side so I can quickly search for what I
    need.

I can't evaluate the gui toolkit MSEgui, as I don't use that. Neither do
I use LCL for that matter.

Pros of Lazarus:
  - Everybody here loves Delphi. Lazarus copies Delphi, so many seem
    instantly at home and happy. I'm not a lemming. ;-)
  - Some like all the automation (code completion, auto indentation
    etc.)
  - Debugging is moving in the right direction, but I still don't think
    it's as good as MSEide.

Cons of Lazarus:
  - Things break often. As the saying goes: "Too many hands in the pot".
  - Things change often.
  - Lazarus Packages. Recently I was told I don't understand them
    correctly. I simply don't like them (I used too). Compiler settings
    often differ in a package compared to the project itself. Sometimes
    changes in code in a package (especially if include files were used)
    are not detected on a recompile of the project doesn't trigger a
    recompile of the package in question. This happens often, and I
    waste a lot of time debugging something I should have to. Sometimes
    packages a recompiled for no reason.
  - I hate all the automation added to Lazarus. I fight for hours trying
    to disable some feature, and often can't find where... the settings
    are too complex and spread out over multiple screens. eg: In my one
    copy of Lazarus it still does seemingly random indentation or
    begin..end completion - often producing code I don't want. I still
    can't figure out where to disable that.
  - big toolbar buttons in every IDE window - wasting massive amounts
    of screen space.
  - LCL is inconsistent in feature between platforms. So I can't set up
    my IDE under Windows the same as I can under FreeBSD or Linux. For
    example I like my editor tabs on the right, and the tab text MUST
    be horizontal. This is not possible with LCL-Qt or LCL-Win.


I'm sure spending more time I can add more items to each category. My
advice. Try each one for a week at least. Ask questions if you don't
understand. You can't evaluate something as complex as an IDE in a
single day, or worse, just a couple of hours.


Regards,
  - Graeme -

--
fpGUI Toolkit - a cross-platform GUI toolkit using Free Pascal
http://fpgui.sourceforge.net/

My public PGP key:  http://tinyurl.com/graeme-pgp
_______________________________________________
fpc-pascal maillist  -  [hidden email]
http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Lazarus vs MSEgui

Rainer Stratmann
In reply to this post by Santiago A.
con of mside why I don't use it:

The behaviour of the cursor on the end of the line. You cannot go behind the
line as it is usual in almost every other editor. Martin says it is difficult to
integrate which I find hard to understand. That behaviour of the cursor
confuses me. The other editors are smarter in that way. And the editor is the
most important thing you use when programming.


Am Freitag, 8. April 2016, 11:08:41 schrieb Santiago A.:

> I know it is a dangerous question that can easily turn into a  holly
> war, flame or whatever. But here it is.
>
> I have only used Lazarus or a general editor (usually Jedit, geany).
> Time ago I checked a little MSEgui and, well, I didn't go for it.
> In MSEgui I found fonts small and interface not very nice. Beside I
> found it a little confusing. Later I found that it could be compiled to
> make fonts bigger etc.
>
> The honest reality is that I didn't devote much time to evaluate it.
> That's the problem of frameworks: when you learn one you get a little
> married with it, there are always complains and quirks, but before
> divorce you want to be sure that where you are moving to is better that
> what you have now. Unfortunately, getting the pros and cons requires
> working with it some time.
>
> The first pro of MSEgui is that it is light.
> In fact, That is the main pro of any thing that is not lazarus. No just
> because it's lighter but because lighter usually means less complex and
> less bugs.
>
> Cons. The most important. It looks like Lazarus has more developers, so
> may be a better decision for the long term.
> The second is the RAD. The immediate two directions updates, from GUI to
> source and from source to GUI, is very handy.
>
> Any body has experience in both (or another IDE for FPC) and has his two
> cents?
>
> By the way, has anybody managed to debug strings.text or any property
> with a getter?
>
>
> --
> Saludos
>
> Santi
> [hidden email]
>
> _______________________________________________
> fpc-pascal maillist  -  [hidden email]
> http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal

_______________________________________________
fpc-pascal maillist  -  [hidden email]
http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Lazarus vs MSEgui

Michael Schnell
In reply to this post by Santiago A.
My very short list:

Pro Lazarus:
  - The LCL is very compatible with the Delphi VCL and so you can easily
port Delphi VCL applications to Linux (but for reasons I don't
understand Delphi moved to Firemonkey).
  - On top of that there is a great number of rather compatible "widget
types" that allow for easily porting such programs to multiple different
OS and widget set variants.

Pro MSE:
  - There is a "NoGui" "Widget" option out of the box, allowing for
completely decent event driven programming (TTimer, Thread to mainthread
signaling) with programs that run on (deeply embedded Linux-) systems
with no widget set installed at all
  - Martin provides the "IFI" add-on that allows for remoting the GUI
(designed in MSEIDE) of a program via (e.g.) TCP/IP.

-Michael
_______________________________________________
fpc-pascal maillist  -  [hidden email]
http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Lazarus vs MSEgui

Krzysztof
In reply to this post by Rainer Stratmann
2016-04-08 12:27 GMT+02:00 Rainer Stratmann <[hidden email]>:
> con of mside why I don't use it:
>
> The behaviour of the cursor on the end of the line. You cannot go behind the
> line as it is usual in almost every other editor. Martin says it is difficult to
> integrate which I find hard to understand. That behaviour of the cursor
> confuses me. The other editors are smarter in that way. And the editor is the
> most important thing you use when programming.

I'm using MSEide only for design forms. For coding I'm still use
Lazarus (with paths to MSEgui source) so I still can enjoy with
Lazarus code completition, build modes etc. Double profit, light final
GUI, fully functional Lazarus code editor
_______________________________________________
fpc-pascal maillist  -  [hidden email]
http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Lazarus vs MSEgui

fredvs
In reply to this post by Rainer Stratmann
> con of mside why I don't use it:
>
> The behaviour of the cursor on the end of the line. You cannot go behind the
> line as it is usual in almost every other editor.

Huh, what do you mean ?
I do not feel any difference with other editors...
 
The big plus, IMO, of MSEide is his weight.
: less than 8 megas for the hole installed/working IDE !

Also MSEide has greatest debug features.

And, because of the perfect assistive interface of MSEgui, there is a child of MSEide (https://github.com/fredvs/ideU) that makes MSEide the first and only IDE totally assisted.

Maybe (once again IMO) the only con is that MSEide cannot deal with LCL projects.
But I do not use LCL anymore, so, for me, it is not a problem.

Fre;D

_______________________________________________
fpc-pascal maillist  -  [hidden email]
http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Many thanks ;-)
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Lazarus vs MSEgui

Graeme Geldenhuys-6
On 2016-04-08 12:34, Fred van Stappen wrote:
> Maybe (once again IMO) the only con is that MSEide cannot deal with
> LCL projects.

Maybe not designing forms visually, but there is no problems in
compiling LCL based projects with MSEide. In fact, I have done that many
times before.

Regards,
  - Graeme -

--
fpGUI Toolkit - a cross-platform GUI toolkit using Free Pascal
http://fpgui.sourceforge.net/

My public PGP key:  http://tinyurl.com/graeme-pgp
_______________________________________________
fpc-pascal maillist  -  [hidden email]
http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Lazarus vs MSEgui

fredvs
> > Maybe (once again IMO) the only con is that MSEide cannot deal with
> > LCL projects.
>
> Maybe not designing forms visually, but there is no problems in
> compiling LCL based projects with MSEide. In fact, I have done that many
> times before.

Oooops, I did not know that it was possible.
So, I do not see any con...

Fre;D

_______________________________________________
fpc-pascal maillist  -  [hidden email]
http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Many thanks ;-)
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Lazarus vs MSEgui

Martin Schreiber-2
In reply to this post by Krzysztof
On Friday 08 April 2016 13:33:35 Krzysztof wrote:
>
> I'm using MSEide only for design forms. For coding I'm still use
> Lazarus (with paths to MSEgui source) so I still can enjoy with
> Lazarus code completition, build modes etc.

Just a little hint: MSEide has "build modes". IIRC it had it even before
Lazarus introduced them. Please ask on the MSEide+MSEgui mailinglist if you
like to know how it works.
http://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.ide.mseide.user
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mseide-msegui-talk

Martin
_______________________________________________
fpc-pascal maillist  -  [hidden email]
http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Lazarus vs MSEgui

Krzysztof
> Just a little hint: MSEide has "build modes". IIRC it had it even before
> Lazarus introduced them. Please ask on the MSEide+MSEgui mailinglist if you
> like to know how it works.
> http://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.ide.mseide.user
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mseide-msegui-talk

Yes, I know that. I'm already on that list :) . I'm just used to
Lazarus build modes
_______________________________________________
fpc-pascal maillist  -  [hidden email]
http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Lazarus vs MSEgui

Anthony Tekatch
In reply to this post by Santiago A.

On Fri, 8 Apr 2016 11:08:41 +0200, "Santiago A." <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Cons. The most important. It looks like Lazarus has more developers, so
> may be a better decision for the long term.
> The second is the RAD. The immediate two directions updates, from GUI to
> source and from source to GUI, is very handy.


Can MSEgui/MSEide be used to make programs for Mac OSX ?

I could not find notes for that on the website.
_______________________________________________
fpc-pascal maillist  -  [hidden email]
http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Lazarus vs MSEgui

Martin Schreiber-2
On Friday 08 April 2016 17:08:08 Anthony Tekatch wrote:
>
> Can MSEgui/MSEide be used to make programs for Mac OSX ?
>
Currently not. In case of OSX-X11 compatibility layer the effort probably is
manageable. I would prefer a Quartz backend. Sponsors wanted! ;-)

Martin
_______________________________________________
fpc-pascal maillist  -  [hidden email]
http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal