Lazarus, FreePascal, and translated compiler messages

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Lazarus, FreePascal, and translated compiler messages

Yann Mérignac
Hi,

I am part of a team that is reviewing the French translation of Lazarus. The French language has accented characters. These characters are not displayed in the message window of Lazarus. I think Lazarus expects UTF8 strings while the FreePascal translation file is encoded in cp850. For other languages FreePascal translations files are in UTF8, ISO-8859 or other encodings.

Can we convert the French translation from cp850 to UTF8 and send a patch ? Another solution would be to provide two versions of a file on for cp850 and antother for UTF8.



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Re: Lazarus, FreePascal, and translated compiler messages

Mattias Gaertner
On Wed, 6 May 2015 10:55:43 +0200
Yann Mérignac <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I am part of a team that is reviewing the French translation of Lazarus.
> The French language has accented characters. These characters are not
> displayed in the message window of Lazarus.

Fixed.

Mattias
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Re: Lazarus, FreePascal, and translated compiler messages

Yann Mérignac
Thanks for your fix Mattias.

And also because looking at your changes I noticed that there are two translation files for French in two different encodings : 'errorf.msg' and 'errorfi.msg'. So far I thought 'errorfi.msg' was a translation for the Finnish.



2015-05-07 0:34 GMT+02:00 Mattias Gaertner <[hidden email]>:
On Wed, 6 May 2015 10:55:43 +0200
Yann Mérignac <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I am part of a team that is reviewing the French translation of Lazarus.
> The French language has accented characters. These characters are not
> displayed in the message window of Lazarus.

Fixed.

Mattias
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Re: Lazarus, FreePascal, and translated compiler messages

Tomas Hajny-2
On Thu, May 7, 2015 08:47, Yann Mérignac wrote:
> Thanks for your fix Mattias.
>
> And also because looking at your changes I noticed that there are two
> translation files for French in two different encodings : 'errorf.msg' and
> 'errorfi.msg'. So far I thought 'errorfi.msg' was a translation for the
> Finnish.

I mentioned the two files in the original response to Stephane Aulery who
initiated the French translation update.

BTW, talking about this translation effort - as you might know, the
release of FPC 3.0.0 is approaching (although somewhat delayed compared to
the original plans by now). While the primary target of your current
effort is obviously trunk, you may want to have a look at using the
translated file with compiler messages as basis for updating the version
available in branch fixes_3_0 once you finish your work in trunk in order
to ensure the updated translation to be included in the upcoming release.

Tomas


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Re: Lazarus, FreePascal, and translated compiler messages

Stéphane Aulery
Hello Mattias, Yann and Tomas

Le jeudi 07 mai 2015 à 10:58:31, Tomas Hajny a écrit :
> On Thu, May 7, 2015 08:47, Yann Mérignac wrote:
> >
> > And also because looking at your changes I noticed that there are two
> > translation files for French in two different encodings : 'errorf.msg' and
> > 'errorfi.msg'. So far I thought 'errorfi.msg' was a translation for the
> > Finnish.
>
> I mentioned the two files in the original response to Stephane Aulery who
> initiated the French translation update.

I did not dare to change that, but I too would like to have only the
UTF-8 release.

> BTW, talking about this translation effort - as you might know, the
> release of FPC 3.0.0 is approaching (although somewhat delayed compared to
> the original plans by now). While the primary target of your current
> effort is obviously trunk, you may want to have a look at using the
> translated file with compiler messages as basis for updating the version
> available in branch fixes_3_0 once you finish your work in trunk in order
> to ensure the updated translation to be included in the upcoming release.

With Frédéric Da Vitoria, we began to review the status of the translation
of the FPC. We concluded that it is very difficult to maintain and not very
useful because it is not implemented with ressourcestrings. We have not given
up to translate, but one wonders if it will not fit first FPC for better
support in the long term.

I need your opinion on this issue, given that the interweaving with the
TeX manual is also very problematic.

There is also the translation of fpdoc update. I started watching. There
is a resource compilation problem because the code has changed but the
makefile has not been adapted taking into account the translations.

Regards,

--
Stéphane Aulery
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Re: Lazarus, FreePascal, and translated compiler messages

Yann Mérignac
In reply to this post by Tomas Hajny-2
Ok, we are going to make a translation suitable for future 3.0.

Thanks.

2015-05-07 10:58 GMT+02:00 Tomas Hajny <[hidden email]>:
On Thu, May 7, 2015 08:47, Yann Mérignac wrote:
> Thanks for your fix Mattias.
>
> And also because looking at your changes I noticed that there are two
> translation files for French in two different encodings : 'errorf.msg' and
> 'errorfi.msg'. So far I thought 'errorfi.msg' was a translation for the
> Finnish.

I mentioned the two files in the original response to Stephane Aulery who
initiated the French translation update.

BTW, talking about this translation effort - as you might know, the
release of FPC 3.0.0 is approaching (although somewhat delayed compared to
the original plans by now). While the primary target of your current
effort is obviously trunk, you may want to have a look at using the
translated file with compiler messages as basis for updating the version
available in branch fixes_3_0 once you finish your work in trunk in order
to ensure the updated translation to be included in the upcoming release.

Tomas


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Re: Lazarus, FreePascal, and translated compiler messages

Sven Barth-2
In reply to this post by Stéphane Aulery

Am 08.05.2015 11:39 schrieb "Stéphane Aulery" <[hidden email]>:
> With Frédéric Da Vitoria, we began to review the status of the translation
> of the FPC. We concluded that it is very difficult to maintain and not very
> useful because it is not implemented with ressourcestrings. We have not given
> up to translate, but one wonders if it will not fit first FPC for better
> support in the long term.
>
> I need your opinion on this issue, given that the interweaving with the
> TeX manual is also very problematic.

There are IMHO three reasons it is done the way it is:
- it has grown that way (probably from a time before FPC supported resourcestrings)
- the IDs, the verbosities and the messages are located in one single location avoiding a drift of these
- it is easy to generate the documentation as it's part of the same file

It might provide obstacles for translators, but it eases the work for the compiler developers and IMHO that is the main reason to keep it the way it is.

Regards,
Sven


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Re: Lazarus, FreePascal, and translated compiler messages

Stéphane Aulery
Hello Sven,

Le vendredi 08 mai 2015 à 02:00:06, Sven Barth a écrit :

> Am 08.05.2015 11:39 schrieb "Stéphane Aulery" <[hidden email]>:
> > With Frédéric Da Vitoria, we began to review the status of the translation
> > of the FPC. We concluded that it is very difficult to maintain and not
> very
> > useful because it is not implemented with ressourcestrings. We have not
> given
> > up to translate, but one wonders if it will not fit first FPC for better
> > support in the long term.
> >
> > I need your opinion on this issue, given that the interweaving with the
> > TeX manual is also very problematic.
>
> There are IMHO three reasons it is done the way it is:
> - it has grown that way (probably from a time before FPC supported
> resourcestrings)
> - the IDs, the verbosities and the messages are located in one single
> location avoiding a drift of these
> - it is easy to generate the documentation as it's part of the same file
>
> It might provide obstacles for translators, but it eases the work for the
> compiler developers and IMHO that is the main reason to keep it the way it
> is.

It's not the only problem:

- It is not possible to perform FPC in accordance with the language
  passed by the environment variables;

- This part of the manual is virtually untranslatable because msgdif
  tool does not synchronize the TeX part;

- Translations are never up to date and do not compile actually.

My goal is to improve the state of the compiler and the service to users
without complicating the work of developers and translators.

On this point I think the state of the compiler is not good for
developers, translators and users.

The developer must edit one file at a frightful codification
complicating hir life instead of a clean and structured code (including
errors of descriptions). Look what it did in the Microsoft environment.
It's not just the error messages but also their descriptions, ID and
level, which are accessible during code execution.

This is not available but tucked only in a manual, which is almost
untranslatable in the current state. In fact none of the translations
is updated because it is not maintainable. I even sent a patch to fix
ALMOST ALL languages because it does not even compile! So, who uses them?

Two reasonable solutions are possible to me:

- Finding a compromise that suits everyone, but it takes some work to do;

- If no one is interested, competent, available, and given that the intended
  audience is supposed to have enough English, we can remove these translations
  and mechanism complicating the compilation and clearly notify users that this
  part cannot be translated in the current state.

The compilation of fpdoc of ressourcestrings is also broken. So I ask
myself honestly, although I would have preferred that all this is
restored and translated, if the second solution is not by far the best
yet.

Regards,

--
Stéphane Aulery
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Re: Lazarus, FreePascal, and translated compiler messages

Schindler Karl-Michael-2
In reply to this post by Yann Mérignac
Regarding the discussion of the format, I would like to add the following experiences from my activities keeping the German error messages for FreePascal up to date as well as translating the documentation of another project.

The hardest work in translation is actually on the language side. Thinking about appropriate terms and also the work to make the translation consistent, using the same terms to avoid confusion. Since most of the languages are out of date, it looks like an awful lot, but it is more important to have continuous contributions than a one time shot. Once one has managed to get up to date, it is not that much work. There is about one commit per month to errore.msg and 4 checks per year are enough to really keep it up to date. Details of the format are of minor importance, then.

The Lazarus error messages are probably a different story.

My 2 cents - Michael Schindler
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Re: Lazarus, FreePascal, and translated compiler messages

Stéphane Aulery
Le vendredi 08 mai 2015 à 08:47:01, Schindler Karl-Michael a écrit :
> Regarding the discussion of the format, I would like to add the following experiences from my activities keeping the German error messages for FreePascal up to date as well as translating the documentation of another project.
>
> The hardest work in translation is actually on the language side. Thinking about appropriate terms and also the work to make the translation consistent, using the same terms to avoid confusion. Since most of the languages are out of date, it looks like an awful lot, but it is more important to have continuous contributions than a one time shot. Once one has managed to get up to date, it is not that much work. There is about one commit per month to errore.msg and 4 checks per year are enough to really keep it up to date. Details of the format are of minor importance, then.
>
> The Lazarus error messages are probably a different story.

If the format is unimportant, why is that different please ?

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Stéphane Aulery
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