FPC 2.4.2 source

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
34 messages Options
12
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: FPC 2.4.2 source

Bernd Kreuss
On 21.05.2011 12:11, Mattias Gaertner wrote:
>> The thing I have never understood is why it split into a myriad of
>> different .deb files
>
> Because of Debian policies.

There exists a debian policy to split a large package into some randomly
chosen smaller ones although *none* of them can ever be used
individually without *all* others?

I didn't know this. The only policy I know of is that there is a
convention to separate packages for binary and source (and headers if
C/C++) and even is not generally applicable to all programming languages.

I would just make one binary package and one source package and ignore
the affectivities of the debian bureaucrats and let them split it on
their own if they so desperately want to split things for no reason that
have always belonged together. I promise: They wont. They will take the
package as it is. Don't ever let your productivity be hindered by some
crazy Debian bureaucrats, don't let them dictate you how to architect
your own software, don't waste any valuable time trying to fulfill their
crazy unreasonable wishes. Just ignore them. Don't listen to them when
they are trying to educate you about your own software, they have no
clue about it. Do what makes sense and ignore everything that has no
other reason than pure bureaucracy. They will bow (rather sooner than
later) because they simply have no other choice and either do the work
themselves or (more likely) simply take the package more or less as it is.

Bernd
_______________________________________________
fpc-pascal maillist  -  [hidden email]
http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: FPC 2.4.2 source

Bernd Kreuss
In reply to this post by Mattias Gaertner
On 21.05.2011 12:21, Mattias Gaertner wrote:
 A README.txt would
> help. For example:
> If you want to install the gtk2 version of Lazarus use:

A shell script that installs them in the correct order.
_______________________________________________
fpc-pascal maillist  -  [hidden email]
http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: FPC 2.4.2 source

Jonas Maebe-2
In reply to this post by Bernd Kreuss

On 21 May 2011, at 12:54, Bernd Kreuss wrote:

> There exists a debian policy to split a large package into some randomly
> chosen smaller ones although *none* of them can ever be used
> individually without *all* others?

It's not true that none of them can be used without all others. And afaik the main reason for the split is because of dependencies. They don't want to force everyone to install firebird, mysql, postgresql, ptcgraph, gtk, gtk2, qt and every other single thing for which FPC has bindings. On the other hand, they want to ensure that when someone installs those FPC bindings, that the package these bindings are for also gets installed.


Jonas_______________________________________________
fpc-pascal maillist  -  [hidden email]
http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: FPC 2.4.2 source

Mattias Gaertner
In reply to this post by Bernd Kreuss
On Sat, 21 May 2011 12:58:56 +0200
Bernd Kreuss <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 21.05.2011 12:21, Mattias Gaertner wrote:
>  A README.txt would
> > help. For example:
> > If you want to install the gtk2 version of Lazarus use:
>
> A shell script that installs them in the correct order.

dpkg will order them for you. Just pass all needed behind the -i.

Mattias
_______________________________________________
fpc-pascal maillist  -  [hidden email]
http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: FPC 2.4.2 source

Rainer Stratmann
In reply to this post by Mattias Gaertner
Am Saturday 21 May 2011 12:21:54 schrieb Mattias Gaertner:

> On Sat, 21 May 2011 11:57:42 +0200
>
> Rainer Stratmann <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Am Saturday 21 May 2011 11:29:34 schrieb Mattias Gaertner:
> > > On Sat, 21 May 2011 12:12:59 +0300
> > >
> > > "Juha (gmail)" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > >[...]
> > > >
> > > > > When trying to update the new lazarus and fpc binaries with deb
> > > > > packages I got in trouble with dependancies. Then I abort it.
> > >
> > > What troubles?
> > >
> > > > Yes. Based on forum posts updating causes more problems, also when
> > > > updating between releases, not only when compiling from svn sources.
> > >
> > > What problems?
> > >
> > > Please name a specific problem, so we can discuss a solution.
> >
> > <aten/fpc/lazarus-9.0.30/lcl-units-0.9.30_0.9.30-0_i386.deb' ;echo
> > RESULT=$? Wähle vormals abgewähltes Paket lcl-units-0.9.30.
> > (Lese Datenbank ... 159373 Dateien und Verzeichnisse sind derzeit
> > installiert.)
> > Entpacke lcl-units-0.9.30 (aus .../lcl-units-0.9.30_0.9.30-0_i386.deb)
> > ... dpkg: Abhängigkeitsprobleme verhindern Konfiguration von
> > lcl-units-0.9.30: lcl-units-0.9.30 hängt ab von lcl-gtk2-0.9.30 (=
> > 0.9.30-0) | lcl-gtk-0.9.30 (= 0.9.30-0) | lcl-qt-0.9.30 (= 0.9.30-0);
> > aber:
> >   Paket lcl-gtk2-0.9.30 ist nicht installiert.
> >   Paket lcl-gtk-0.9.30 ist nicht installiert.
> >   Paket lcl-qt-0.9.30 ist nicht installiert.
> > dpkg: Fehler beim Bearbeiten von lcl-units-0.9.30 (--install):
> >  Abhängigkeitsprobleme - lasse es unkonfiguriert
> > Fehler traten auf beim Bearbeiten von:
> >  lcl-units-0.9.30
> > RESULT=1
> >
> > <aten/fpc/lazarus-9.0.30/lcl-qt4-0.9.30_0.9.30-0_i386.deb' ;echo
> > RESULT=$? Wähle vormals abgewähltes Paket lcl-qt4-0.9.30.
> > (Lese Datenbank ... 161332 Dateien und Verzeichnisse sind derzeit
> > installiert.)
> > Entpacke lcl-qt4-0.9.30 (aus .../lcl-qt4-0.9.30_0.9.30-0_i386.deb) ...
> > dpkg: Abhängigkeitsprobleme verhindern Konfiguration von lcl-qt4-0.9.30:
> >  lcl-qt4-0.9.30 hängt ab von libqt4pas-dev; aber:
> >   Paket libqt4pas-dev ist nicht installiert.
> > dpkg: Fehler beim Bearbeiten von lcl-qt4-0.9.30 (--install):
> >  Abhängigkeitsprobleme - lasse es unkonfiguriert
> > Fehler traten auf beim Bearbeiten von:
> >  lcl-qt4-0.9.30
> > RESULT=1
>
> They are typical dpkg messages. This is pretty normal when installing
> deb packages manually. That is not specific to Lazarus or FPC.
> The problem is that the tar contains *all* packages, but
> normally you don't want to install all of them. A README.txt would
> help. For example:
> If you want to install the gtk2 version of Lazarus use:
>   dpkg -i foogtk.deb bar.deb etc.deb
> If you want to install the qt version of Lazarus use:
>   dpkg -i fooqt.deb bar.deb etc.deb
>
I downloaded from here:
http://sourceforge.net/projects/lazarus/files/Lazarus%20Linux%20i386%20DEB/Lazarus%200.9.30/
And I can not see such packages you mentioned.
When type in for example:
dpkg -i fooqt.deb bar.deb etc.deb
there are still messages

debian:/home/rainer/daten/fpc/lazarus-9.0.30# dpkg -i fooqt.deb bar.deb
stc.deb
dpkg: Fehler beim Bearbeiten von fooqt.deb (--install):
 Kann auf das Archiv nicht zugreifen: Datei oder Verzeichnis nicht gefunden
dpkg: Fehler beim Bearbeiten von bar.deb (--install):
 Kann auf das Archiv nicht zugreifen: Datei oder Verzeichnis nicht gefunden
dpkg: Fehler beim Bearbeiten von stc.deb (--install):
 Kann auf das Archiv nicht zugreifen: Datei oder Verzeichnis nicht gefunden
Fehler traten auf beim Bearbeiten von:
 fooqt.deb
 bar.deb
 stc.deb



> Mattias
> _______________________________________________
> fpc-pascal maillist  -  [hidden email]
> http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal


_______________________________________________
fpc-pascal maillist  -  [hidden email]
http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: FPC 2.4.2 source

Vinzent Höfler
In reply to this post by Juha Manninen
On Sat, 21 May 2011 13:19:35 +0200, Rainer Stratmann  
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Am Saturday 21 May 2011 12:21:54 schrieb Mattias Gaertner:
>>
>> They are typical dpkg messages. This is pretty normal when installing
>> deb packages manually. That is not specific to Lazarus or FPC.
>> The problem is that the tar contains *all* packages, but
>> normally you don't want to install all of them. A README.txt would
>> help. For example:
>> If you want to install the gtk2 version of Lazarus use:
>>   dpkg -i foogtk.deb bar.deb etc.deb
>> If you want to install the qt version of Lazarus use:
>>   dpkg -i fooqt.deb bar.deb etc.deb
>>
> I downloaded from here:
> http://sourceforge.net/projects/lazarus/files/Lazarus%20Linux%20i386%20DEB/Lazarus%200.9.30/
> And I can not see such packages you mentioned.
> When type in for example:
> dpkg -i fooqt.deb bar.deb etc.deb
> there are still messages

*ouch* That hurt.

You owe my parents a new table now. I broke it when my head made contact
with it.

Of course, there are no "foo", "bar", or "etc" packages. Those are
exemplary names.


Vinzent.
_______________________________________________
fpc-pascal maillist  -  [hidden email]
http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: FPC 2.4.2 source

Rainer Stratmann
Am Saturday 21 May 2011 13:28:03 schrieb Vinzent Höfler:

> On Sat, 21 May 2011 13:19:35 +0200, Rainer Stratmann
>
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Am Saturday 21 May 2011 12:21:54 schrieb Mattias Gaertner:
> >> They are typical dpkg messages. This is pretty normal when installing
> >> deb packages manually. That is not specific to Lazarus or FPC.
> >> The problem is that the tar contains *all* packages, but
> >> normally you don't want to install all of them. A README.txt would
> >> help. For example:
> >> If you want to install the gtk2 version of Lazarus use:
> >>   dpkg -i foogtk.deb bar.deb etc.deb
> >> If you want to install the qt version of Lazarus use:
> >>   dpkg -i fooqt.deb bar.deb etc.deb
> >
> > I downloaded from here:
> > http://sourceforge.net/projects/lazarus/files/Lazarus%20Linux%20i386%20DE
> >B/Lazarus%200.9.30/ And I can not see such packages you mentioned.
> > When type in for example:
> > dpkg -i fooqt.deb bar.deb etc.deb
> > there are still messages
>
> *ouch* That hurt.
>
> You owe my parents a new table now. I broke it when my head made contact
> with it.

Tz, tz, tz...

...so your head is not strong enough...

> Of course, there are no "foo", "bar", or "etc" packages. Those are
> exemplary names.

That does not help me to fix the problem of installing the packages rather it
makes it more complicated.

>
> Vinzent.
> _______________________________________________
> fpc-pascal maillist  -  [hidden email]
> http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal


_______________________________________________
fpc-pascal maillist  -  [hidden email]
http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: FPC 2.4.2 source

Rainer Stratmann
In reply to this post by Vinzent Höfler
>
> You owe my parents a new table now. I broke it when my head made contact
> with it.
>
...or you head is too strong...
_______________________________________________
fpc-pascal maillist  -  [hidden email]
http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: FPC 2.4.2 source

Bernd Kreuss
In reply to this post by Jonas Maebe-2
On 21.05.2011 12:59, Jonas Maebe wrote:

> They don't want to force everyone to install firebird, mysql, postgresql, ptcgraph, gtk, gtk2, qt and every other single thing for which FPC has bindings.

"force" is the keyword here. The entire following rant refers to only
this one word:

Its not their [Debian] business to find non-solutions for these
non-problems, I would just ignore this.

They are first making up a non-existing problem (people being "forced"
to do something they allegedly don't want, although we all know the
opposite is true and people *always* want a complete and painless
install to avoid all sorts of problems) and then they are presenting the
non-solution to this non-problem: Do a lot of work to split things that
always belonged together while creating a lot of new problems and
dependency hell nobody has asked for and nobody ever wanted.

Just ignore what they [Debian] want. It is not relevant what they
believe (or guess) what your users might want. Don't let them damage the
usability and the reputation by listening to them and wasting time
solving their fantasy problems while this is leading to the creation new
and very real problems. The sheer existence of this thread (and other
threads like this and many more) is testifying this.

The Debian maintainers have no expertise in judging what the users of a
given software really *want*, especially if they don't use it
themselves. Simply ignore them. Their opinion does not matter. They will
accept the big package. Don't bow to them, they want something from you,
not the other way around!

The windows installer of Lazarus clearly shows how usability looks like.
This is what users want! There is no reason why this should not be
possible on Debian also. If Debian policies (or like in this case not
even the written policies themselves but only the beliefs of some
overzealous Debian maintainers) are the only thing preventing usability
from coming true then to hell with them.

Bernd

_______________________________________________
fpc-pascal maillist  -  [hidden email]
http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: FPC 2.4.2 source

Rainer Stratmann
Am Saturday 21 May 2011 13:44:10 schrieb Bernd Kreuss:

> On 21.05.2011 12:59, Jonas Maebe wrote:
> > They don't want to force everyone to install firebird, mysql, postgresql,
> > ptcgraph, gtk, gtk2, qt and every other single thing for which FPC has
> > bindings.
>
> "force" is the keyword here. The entire following rant refers to only
> this one word:
>
> Its not their [Debian] business to find non-solutions for these
> non-problems, I would just ignore this.
>
...
The rules may have reasons for managing the debian project.

To be independent is more work in the beginning.
But then you have all liberties.
I like to be independent, so I wrote my own webserver
(http://demo.klimaregelung.de) instead of relying to other packages.
And also an own (very simple) PNG image converter from plain bitmap data.
...
>
> The windows installer of Lazarus clearly shows how usability looks like.
> This is what users want! There is no reason why this should not be
> possible on Debian also. If Debian policies ...

I think this would be also possible for Linux.
One big file (in these days easy to handle) and then install everything
(memory is also enough these days). May be with a choice for the packages.


> Bernd
>
> _______________________________________________
> fpc-pascal maillist  -  [hidden email]
> http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal


_______________________________________________
fpc-pascal maillist  -  [hidden email]
http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: FPC 2.4.2 source

Roland Schäfer
In reply to this post by Rainer Stratmann
On 5/21/2011 1:19 PM, Rainer Stratmann wrote:

>> They are typical dpkg messages. This is pretty normal when installing
>> deb packages manually. That is not specific to Lazarus or FPC.
>> The problem is that the tar contains *all* packages, but
>> normally you don't want to install all of them. A README.txt would
>> help. For example:
>> If you want to install the gtk2 version of Lazarus use:
>>   dpkg -i foogtk.deb bar.deb etc.deb
>> If you want to install the qt version of Lazarus use:
>>   dpkg -i fooqt.deb bar.deb etc.deb
>>
> I downloaded from here:
> http://sourceforge.net/projects/lazarus/files/Lazarus%20Linux%20i386%20DEB/Lazarus%200.9.30/
> And I can not see such packages you mentioned.
> When type in for example:
> dpkg -i fooqt.deb bar.deb etc.deb
> there are still messages

Are you being serious about literally doing 'dgpk -i fooqt.deb'? Maybe
I'm not reading you correctly.

Anway, having just set up fpc and lazarus snapshots under Ubuntu 11.04
(and since we obviously all want everything always), this is how you
might succeed:

1. Unpack the Snapshot .deb.tar to whatever/
2. sudo dpkg -R -i whatever/
3. If there are complaints about missing dependencies, open Synaptics
afterwards, do "Fix broken packages" -> "Apply" and, normally, you
should be fine.

I also noticed that the Lazarus i386-deb Link on the Snapshot page leads
to a package that gives you "LCLBase not found" (or similar) errors.

I used this package, which worked, and which also has a more recent date:

ftp://ftp.hu.freepascal.org/pub/lazarus/snapshots/lazarus-0.9.30.1.30409-20110510.i386.deb.tar

Regards
Roland
_______________________________________________
fpc-pascal maillist  -  [hidden email]
http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: FPC 2.4.2 source

Henry Vermaak
In reply to this post by Bernd Kreuss
On 21 May 2011 12:44, Bernd Kreuss <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 21.05.2011 12:59, Jonas Maebe wrote:
>
>> They don't want to force everyone to install firebird, mysql, postgresql, ptcgraph, gtk, gtk2, qt and every other single thing for which FPC has bindings.
>
> "force" is the keyword here. The entire following rant refers to only
> this one word:
>
> Its not their [Debian] business to find non-solutions for these
> non-problems, I would just ignore this.

Which part of Jonas' email did you not understand?  I don't want KDE
pulled in when I'm on Gnome (and vice versa).  It's a real problem
with a real solution.

> They are first making up a non-existing problem (people being "forced"
> to do something they allegedly don't want, although we all know the
> opposite is true and people *always* want a complete and painless
> install to avoid all sorts of problems) and then they are presenting the
> non-solution to this non-problem: Do a lot of work to split things that
> always belonged together while creating a lot of new problems and
> dependency hell nobody has asked for and nobody ever wanted.

When you install from deb files (outside the repo), then packages will
be marked as broken and you can use apt-get -f install to solve the
dependencies from your own repo.  Very easy if you bother to rtfm.

The correct and best way is to use a repo that contains your packages
and add it to your sources.list.

> Just ignore what they [Debian] want. It is not relevant what they
> believe (or guess) what your users might want. Don't let them damage the
> usability and the reputation by listening to them and wasting time
> solving their fantasy problems while this is leading to the creation new
> and very real problems. The sheer existence of this thread (and other
> threads like this and many more) is testifying this.

Nope, this thread was started because Juha contracted temporary
blindness and couldn't find the fpc source package on sourgeforge.
The deb issue was brought up by Rainer.

> The Debian maintainers have no expertise in judging what the users of a
> given software really *want*, especially if they don't use it
> themselves. Simply ignore them. Their opinion does not matter. They will
> accept the big package. Don't bow to them, they want something from you,
> not the other way around!

No, they won't accept a big package, since that would be bad
engineering and inflexible.  And no, they don't want something from
you, otherwise they will come and get it.  They seem to be quite good
at judging what I want.

> The windows installer of Lazarus clearly shows how usability looks like.
> This is what users want! There is no reason why this should not be

Haha, the lazarus installer installs fpc and a bunch of mingw/cygwin
tools inside the lazarus installation.  This is definitely not what I
want, since I've already got my own installations of fpc and mingw.
But this is a Windows solution to a Windows problem: the real
dependency hell.

Henry
_______________________________________________
fpc-pascal maillist  -  [hidden email]
http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: FPC 2.4.2 source

Roland Schäfer
In reply to this post by Bernd Kreuss
On 5/21/2011 1:44 PM, Bernd Kreuss wrote:
> They are first making up a non-existing problem (people being "forced"
> to do something they allegedly don't want, although we all know the
> opposite is true and people *always* want a complete and painless
> install to avoid all sorts of problems) and then they are presenting the

I can refute your point about people always wanting complete installs by
simply referring to myself. How do you know what all users of FPC/Laz
always want?

> Just ignore what they [Debian] want. It is not relevant what they
> believe (or guess) what your users might want. Don't let them damage the
> usability and the reputation by listening to them and wasting time
> solving their fantasy problems while this is leading to the creation new
> and very real problems. The sheer existence of this thread (and other
> threads like this and many more) is testifying this.

Debian (and its derivates, to varying degrees) has one big advantage,
viz. its consistent and disciplined package management. I don't see how
giving a damn about their good practices and policies would help to
promote a comparatively small project.

> The Debian maintainers have no expertise in judging what the users of a
> given software really *want*, especially if they don't use it
> themselves. Simply ignore them. Their opinion does not matter. They will
> accept the big package. Don't bow to them, they want something from you,
> not the other way around!

I don't see the problem. FPC/Laz users get what they want on Debian etc.
It's just a matter of how you get it.

And once again, I want to stress that statements like "Their opinion
does not matter." are not only not helpful, but I guess also wrong in
the sense that it does very much matter.

> The windows installer of Lazarus clearly shows how usability looks like.
> This is what users want! There is no reason why this should not be
> possible on Debian also. If Debian policies (or like in this case not
> even the written policies themselves but only the beliefs of some
> overzealous Debian maintainers) are the only thing preventing usability
> from coming true then to hell with them.

I'm not going to refute those universal statements again. The only thing
I can think of that would be a (rather insignificant) usability
improvement for Debian packages would be to have a repository for daily
FPC/Laz snapshots. Otherwise things have always been fine for me.

Best
Roland
_______________________________________________
fpc-pascal maillist  -  [hidden email]
http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: FPC 2.4.2 source

Tomas Hajny-2
In reply to this post by Bernd Kreuss
On Sat, May 21, 2011 13:44, Bernd Kreuss wrote:

> On 21.05.2011 12:59, Jonas Maebe wrote:
>
>> They don't want to force everyone to install firebird, mysql,
>> postgresql, ptcgraph, gtk, gtk2, qt and every other single thing for
>> which FPC has bindings.
>
> "force" is the keyword here. The entire following rant refers to only
> this one word:
>
> Its not their [Debian] business to find non-solutions for these
> non-problems, I would just ignore this.
 .
 .

I won't argue to your statements (which are already properly covered by
others, e.g. the response from Jonas above) and I'll simply stick to your
proposed keyword. Who forces you to use Debian packages (which are
obviously compiled according to rules defined by Debian) instead of using
a big .tar.gz or some other solution? Who forces you to use Debian (or
Debian based) distribution at all even (there are other distributions with
slightly different rules)? If you want to focus existing problems (which
had been the original topic of this thread) then let's discuss concrete
issues (i.e. what does not work, why and how to improve the situation for
the future). If you want to discuss philosophical points regarding
packaging rules of various Linux distributions, I suggest moving to
fpc-other.

Tomas


_______________________________________________
fpc-pascal maillist  -  [hidden email]
http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
12