Embarcadero/CodeGear officialy interested in Firebird and on native versions of Delphi for other operating systems ...

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Embarcadero/CodeGear officialy interested in Firebird and on native versions of Delphi for other operating systems ...

Dimitrios Chr. Ioannidis-3
Hi all,

   something i just read at http://www.firebirdnews.org and in Marco
Cantu's blog ( http://blog.marcocantu.com/blog/coderage_2008_closing.html )

regards,

--
Dimitrios Chr. Ioannidis
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Re: Embarcadero/CodeGear officialy interested in Firebird and on native versions of Delphi for other operating systems ...

Bee-6
> something i just read at http://www.firebirdnews.org and in Marco
> Cantu's blog ( http://blog.marcocantu.com/blog/coderage_2008_closing 
> .html)

Sometimes I just understand those guys. Delphi (as language) by support of
FreePascal and Lazarus had been already on Mac and Linux since years!
Especially since Lazarus supported GTK2 on Linux and Carbon on Mac. Why are
they still busy with other alternatives (Mono/.Net, Java, RealBasic, Ruby,
XCode, etc) while what they had been dreaming about is right before their
eyes. Yes, FPC and Lazarus is not perfect, but what is?!

FPC's FCL and Lazarus' LCL is very much similar and compatible with Delphi's
(as product) VCL. Having single codebase for different platforms and OSes is
not that hard, though in some special cases it can't be 100% single codebase
but it can be solved easily using IFDEFs.

Some people (mostly people in this list) have been using Delphi (as
language) on more than 16 platforms (including mobile devices), yet they are
(Codegear/Embarcadero fan boys) still dreaming about it. My very deep
condolence goes to them. :)

 -Bee-

has Bee.ography at:
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Re: Re: Embarcadero/CodeGear officialy interested in Firebird and on native versions of Delphi for other operating systems ...

princeriley
Bee --

You make a very excellent point in your post and one that I think doesn't get repeated loudly enough into the ears of the Embarcadero folks. Maybe its time for an open letter posted to
these kinds of lists and sending their president a e-mail with the link to read the comments for himself.

Market presence, that elusive and ill-defined Holy Grail that Borland chased, is now luring these folks into trying to be too many things to too many people. But what we as developers with the FPC and Lazarus must do more of and be keen about is promoting the benefits you describe and
coding projects that will make the case less a matter of loyalty and more a matter of results.

The mobile/embedded market is the place every software tool company wants to be right now. It's very difficult to get Embaradero to take their eyes off the .NET market since they have decided to
sell $900 development tool sets.

We have to be smarter than they are and keep pushing the language toward these new applications.

Prince

On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 9:33 PM, <[hidden email]> wrote:
something i just read at http://www.firebirdnews.org and in Marco Cantu's blog ( http://blog.marcocantu.com/blog/coderage_2008_closing .html)

Sometimes I just understand those guys. Delphi (as language) by support of FreePascal and Lazarus had been already on Mac and Linux since years! Especially since Lazarus supported GTK2 on Linux and Carbon on Mac. Why are they still busy with other alternatives (Mono/.Net, Java, RealBasic, Ruby, XCode, etc) while what they had been dreaming about is right before their eyes. Yes, FPC and Lazarus is not perfect, but what is?!
FPC's FCL and Lazarus' LCL is very much similar and compatible with Delphi's (as product) VCL. Having single codebase for different platforms and OSes is not that hard, though in some special cases it can't be 100% single codebase but it can be solved easily using IFDEFs.
Some people (mostly people in this list) have been using Delphi (as language) on more than 16 platforms (including mobile devices), yet they are (Codegear/Embarcadero fan boys) still dreaming about it. My very deep condolence goes to them. :)
-Bee-
has Bee.ography at:
http://beeography.wordpress.com

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Re: Re: Embarcadero/CodeGear officialy interested in Firebird and on native versions of Delphi for other operating systems ...

Graeme Geldenhuys-2
In reply to this post by Bee-6
On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 5:33 AM,  <[hidden email]> wrote:
> FPC's FCL and Lazarus' LCL is very much similar and compatible with Delphi's
> (as product) VCL. Having single codebase for different platforms and OSes is
> not that hard, though in some special cases it can't be 100% single codebase
> but it can be solved easily using IFDEFs.

With sufficient abstraction, it's even possible without IFDEFs.  My
applications don't run on 16 platfroms, but it does run or 4, and
there isn't  single IFDEF in my code.

> Some people (mostly people in this list) have been using Delphi (as
> language) on more than 16 platforms (including mobile devices), yet they are
> (Codegear/Embarcadero fan boys) still dreaming about it. My very deep
> condolence goes to them. :)

I can't agree more!  ;-)
I've mentioned it a few times in the CodeGear newsgroup as well. If
they can use a different compiler and IDE to target .NET/Mono, why
can't they do the same for cross-platform support.  Simply use Lazarus
IDE and Free Pascal Compiler - supply many bug fixes and ship that!

They keep going on about the .NET dependency justification in the IDE,
saying they didn't want to reinvent the wheel!  Well, they should
practice what they preach. They are going to do just that, if they
want there own cross-platform support. They are stupid if they don't
embrace the Free Pascal Compiler and Lazarus IDE. It would save them a
ton of work!!

Regards,
  - Graeme -


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Re: Re: Embarcadero/CodeGear officialy interested in Firebird and on native versions of Delphi for other operating systems ...

Michael Van Canneyt


On Tue, 9 Dec 2008, Graeme Geldenhuys wrote:

> On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 5:33 AM,  <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > FPC's FCL and Lazarus' LCL is very much similar and compatible with Delphi's
> > (as product) VCL. Having single codebase for different platforms and OSes is
> > not that hard, though in some special cases it can't be 100% single codebase
> > but it can be solved easily using IFDEFs.
>
> With sufficient abstraction, it's even possible without IFDEFs.  My
> applications don't run on 16 platfroms, but it does run or 4, and
> there isn't  single IFDEF in my code.
>
> > Some people (mostly people in this list) have been using Delphi (as
> > language) on more than 16 platforms (including mobile devices), yet they are
> > (Codegear/Embarcadero fan boys) still dreaming about it. My very deep
> > condolence goes to them. :)
>
> I can't agree more!  ;-)
> I've mentioned it a few times in the CodeGear newsgroup as well. If
> they can use a different compiler and IDE to target .NET/Mono, why
> can't they do the same for cross-platform support.  Simply use Lazarus
> IDE and Free Pascal Compiler - supply many bug fixes and ship that!
>
> They keep going on about the .NET dependency justification in the IDE,
> saying they didn't want to reinvent the wheel!  

What kind of nonsense is that ? What does .NET dependency in the IDE
have to do with reinventing the wheel ? Does .NET come with a complete
code refactoring assembly, written in C# by Microsoft or what ?

Assuming they wrote the IDE (and thus code refactoring) themselves,
what is the problem to compile it as native code and get rid of .NET
dependencies in the IDE ?

Really...

Michael.
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Re: Re: Embarcadero/CodeGear officialy interested in Firebird and on native versions of Delphi for other operating systems ...

Marco van de Voort
In our previous episode, Michael Van Canneyt said:
> >
> > They keep going on about the .NET dependency justification in the IDE,
> > saying they didn't want to reinvent the wheel!  
>
> What kind of nonsense is that ? What does .NET dependency in the IDE
> have to do with reinventing the wheel ? Does .NET come with a complete
> code refactoring assembly, written in C# by Microsoft or what ?

Afaik it is not even a direct .NET dependancy, but a Java dependancy that
they chose to resolve via J#->.NET.
 
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Re: Re: Embarcadero/CodeGear officialy interested in Firebird and on native versions of Delphi for other operating systems ...

Graeme Geldenhuys-2
In reply to this post by Michael Van Canneyt
On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 12:13 PM, Michael Van Canneyt
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>>
>> They keep going on about the .NET dependency justification in the IDE,
>> saying they didn't want to reinvent the wheel!
>
> What kind of nonsense is that ? What does .NET dependency in the IDE
> have to do with reinventing the wheel ? Does .NET come with a complete
> code refactoring assembly, written in C# by Microsoft or what ?
>
> Assuming they wrote the IDE (and thus code refactoring) themselves,
> what is the problem to compile it as native code and get rid of .NET
> dependencies in the IDE ?

I didn't get into it much, but many developers are upset about the
.NET dependency in the IDE in last few Delphi releases. Now they can't
run the Delphi IDE via WINE, which apparently many of them did for
Delphi 7 etc...

CodeGear staff mentioned reusing refactoring features of the .NET
framework in the IDE and some other stuff for the editor etc...


Regards,
  - Graeme -


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Re: Re: Embarcadero/CodeGear officialy interested in Firebird and on native versions of Delphi for other operating systems ...

Graeme Geldenhuys-2
In reply to this post by Marco van de Voort
On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 12:25 PM, Marco van de Voort <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Afaik it is not even a direct .NET dependancy, but a Java dependancy that
> they chose to resolve via J#->.NET.

Is J# still being developed?  I have seen or heard anything about J# in ages.


Regards,
  - Graeme -


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Re: Re: Embarcadero/CodeGear officialy interested in Firebird and on native versions of Delphi for other operating systems ...

Marco van de Voort
In our previous episode, Graeme Geldenhuys said:

> > Afaik it is not even a direct .NET dependancy, but a Java dependancy that
> > they chose to resolve via J#->.NET.
>
> Is J# still being developed?  I have seen or heard anything about J# in ages.

No idea. Just know this because it was mentioned in CG ngs when they were
still alive.
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Re: Re: Embarcadero/CodeGear officialy interested in Firebird and on native versions of Delphi for other operating systems ...

Bee-6
In reply to this post by Bee-6
> Sometimes I just understand those guys.

I meant: "Sometime I just *don't* understand those guys."

Sorry for the typo. :)

-Bee-
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Re: Re: Embarcadero/CodeGear officialy interested in Firebird and on native versions of Delphi for other operating systems ...

Michael Van Canneyt
In reply to this post by Graeme Geldenhuys-2


On Tue, 9 Dec 2008, Graeme Geldenhuys wrote:

> On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 12:13 PM, Michael Van Canneyt
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>
> >> They keep going on about the .NET dependency justification in the IDE,
> >> saying they didn't want to reinvent the wheel!
> >
> > What kind of nonsense is that ? What does .NET dependency in the IDE
> > have to do with reinventing the wheel ? Does .NET come with a complete
> > code refactoring assembly, written in C# by Microsoft or what ?
> >
> > Assuming they wrote the IDE (and thus code refactoring) themselves,
> > what is the problem to compile it as native code and get rid of .NET
> > dependencies in the IDE ?
>
> I didn't get into it much, but many developers are upset about the
> .NET dependency in the IDE in last few Delphi releases. Now they can't
> run the Delphi IDE via WINE, which apparently many of them did for
> Delphi 7 etc...
>
> CodeGear staff mentioned reusing refactoring features of the .NET
> framework in the IDE and some other stuff for the editor etc...

I don't believe this argument for a second.

1. .NET has no knowledge of Pascal, so how can it be used to refactor pascal ?
2. The IDE - prior to .NET - already had extensive codetools, I would be
   surprised to learn that they couldn't implement the 2 or 3 things that
   "required" .NET using their own codetools... Reversing this argument
   would mean that they admit that their own codetools are a lot of junk ?

Either way, the .NET dependency IS a big hindrance for a lot of their clients,
and obviously they are (again) not listening. But what else is new ?

Michael.
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Re: Re: Embarcadero/CodeGear officialy interested in Firebird and on native versions of Delphi for other operating systems ...

Graeme Geldenhuys-2
On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 12:51 PM, Michael Van Canneyt
<[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Either way, the .NET dependency IS a big hindrance for a lot of their clients,
> and obviously they are (again) not listening. But what else is new ?

Exactly, they don't learn!  And luckily the old Delphi-maintained
projects in our company are getting less and less. Soon it will be
Free Pascal everywhere!  :-)


Regards,
  - Graeme -


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Re: Re: Embarcadero/CodeGear officialy interested in Firebird and on native versions of Delphi for other operating systems ...

Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho
On the positive side they dumped Delphi for .NET and implemented
Unicode support. Maybe they are recovering from the last decade of ill
management?

There is just something I don't get about some business. Delphi is
similar to Palm in my oppinion. It was a very popular technology and
then it's development stagnated and ill choices have put it in a near
dead state. In the case of Palm really dead.

Was it really more profitable for Borland to let Delphi nearly die?
Wouldn't they profit more if they kept investing (and in the correct
direction) but also had a larger market share then now?

But nothing really new, I have always heard that depending on a single
vendor is a bad idea. Sure, some single vendor software are doing fine
now. But how long before management decides it's more profitable to
milk the software and stagnate development?

--
Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho
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Re: Re: Embarcadero/CodeGear officialy interested in Firebird and on native versions of Delphi for other operating systems ...

Jürgen Hestermann
> Was it really more profitable for Borland to let Delphi nearly die?
> Wouldn't they profit more if they kept investing (and in the correct
> direction) but also had a larger market share then now?

I think they had to make a descision: Either against Microsoft or with
them. They chose to go with Microsoft so they now have to do everything
that supports M$ OSes and avoid everything that could drive users to
open source. In both ways there is no guaranty for success: If they try
to compete with Microsoft they have a strong enemy and if they
collaborate with them they can go down with them if open source becomes
stronger and stronger.

Jürgen Hestermann.
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Re: Re: Embarcadero/CodeGear officialy interested in Firebird and on native versions of Delphi for other operating systems ...

Bee-6
> I think they had to make a descision: Either against Microsoft or with
> them. They chose to go with Microsoft so they now have to do everything
> that supports M$ OSes and avoid everything that could drive users to
> open source. In both ways there is no guaranty for success: If they try
> to compete with Microsoft they have a strong enemy and if they
> collaborate with them they can go down with them if open source becomes
> stronger and stronger.

IMO, they had made a very wrong decision. Supporting open source doesn't
always mean to open source everything. Besides, by supporting open
source, they could also support M$ as well. Supporting open source
doesn't mean against M$. Most of open source projects come with
cross-platform support in mind, including M$. Even Apple indirectly
supports M$ (Safari, iTunes, etc). Nobody denies that M$ still dominates
the market. So, supporting open source should be the safest choice for
them. If M$ grows bigger, they can grow bigger with M$. If M$ goes down,
they can still grow bigger with other platforms (linux, mac, etc).

IMO, RemObjects realize this. That's why their Oxygene/Prism could work
on .Net (M$) and Mono (non M$). Also that's why their other OP-based
products starting to support FPC and Lazarus (to target non M$
platforms). RO is smarter than CodeGear/Embarcadero, obviously. ;)

-Bee-
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Re: Re: Embarcadero/CodeGear officialy interested in Firebird and on native versions of Delphi for other operating systems ...

Jürgen Hestermann
> So, supporting open source should be the safest choice for
> them. If M$ grows bigger, they can grow bigger with M$. If M$ goes down,
> they can still grow bigger with other platforms (linux, mac, etc).

Many years ago (when Borland was still a real competitor of M$) Borland
had problems to create good compilers because they didn't have all the
information about the M$ OS (while compilers from M$ had of course). I
remember that some articles stated that Borland made a deal with M$ so
that they will get information but on the other hand may not support
other OSes (and open source). I am not sure whether that's true but it
would explain the behaviour of all Delphi owners.

Jürgen Hestermann.

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Re: Re: Embarcadero/CodeGear officialy interested in Firebird and on native versions of Delphi for other operating systems ...

princeriley
Jurgen and Bee made a few rich contrasting points about Borland's past mistakes. However, we must acknowledge that Borland's biggest problem was Borland persisten failure to deliver 'price competitive' and 'high value' programming tools.

No one denies Borland's well earned reputation for innovation in Windows programming, Turbo C, Turbo C++ and Delphi blew the doors off MC Visual C and MFC programming for they Windows 3.1, Windows 95, Windows NT platforms. They lead with products that were not only feature rich,
they turned out solid code and made the job of wrangling the Windows Frameworks like COM, COM+, AFC, ODBC, ASP, and MFC much easier.

However, they grabbed defeat from the jaws of victory when they overextebded their development group (Inprise), rushed incomplete and inadequate products (Kylix, Delph 7/8) to market while they
buried themselves in 'Enterprise' COBRA/IIOP, and database engines.

When they slipped, like the hare, this gave MS the catch up and pass them which allowed them to solidify their base with the OS systems.



On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 1:01 AM, Jürgen Hestermann <[hidden email]> wrote:
So, supporting open source should be the safest choice for them. If M$ grows bigger, they can grow bigger with M$. If M$ goes down, they can still grow bigger with other platforms (linux, mac, etc).

Many years ago (when Borland was still a real competitor of M$) Borland had problems to create good compilers because they didn't have all the information about the M$ OS (while compilers from M$ had of course). I remember that some articles stated that Borland made a deal with M$ so that they will get information but on the other hand may not support other OSes (and open source). I am not sure whether that's true but it would explain the behaviour of all Delphi owners.

Jürgen Hestermann.


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