Delphi for Linux is out

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Delphi for Linux is out

Graeme Geldenhuys-6
Hi,

Just thought I would mention, yesterday Delphi 10.2 was released which
includes Linux support (I assume a cross-compiler). It is only available
in the Enterprise edition product line though, and only Linux Server
style apps are supported (no GUI/desktop apps).

Just my 2c worth ;-)

Regards,
  Graeme
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Re: Delphi for Linux is out

Karoly Balogh (Charlie/SGR)
Hi,

On Thu, 23 Mar 2017, Graeme Geldenhuys wrote:

> Just thought I would mention, yesterday Delphi 10.2 was released which
> includes Linux support (I assume a cross-compiler). It is only available
> in the Enterprise edition product line though, and only Linux Server
> style apps are supported (no GUI/desktop apps).

I can't wait until we get the blame that Free Pascal on Linux is now
incompatible with Delphi on Linux...

Charlie
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Re: Delphi for Linux is out

Michael Ring-2
At least not from me, I felt already ripped off by Embarcadero by not
delivering on their promise to bring Linux last summer (Fortunately I
did not renew my Pro-Subscription). Seeing that they wanted to do a 2nd
rip off by only giving it to Enterprise customers reassured me that that
decision was a good one.

So for me Freepascal is the master, not only on x86_64 linux but also on
armhf-linux, arm embedded, wonder how long it takes Embarcadero to make
their product available on arm-linux.....

So guys, pleae keep up your phantastic work, and goodby Delphi, we have
been together since the good old Turbo-Pascal times, but you have
changed into a money sucking beast, it breaks my heart but I am gone.....

Michael

Am 23.03.17 um 13:15 schrieb Karoly Balogh (Charlie/SGR):

> Hi,
>
> On Thu, 23 Mar 2017, Graeme Geldenhuys wrote:
>
>> Just thought I would mention, yesterday Delphi 10.2 was released which
>> includes Linux support (I assume a cross-compiler). It is only available
>> in the Enterprise edition product line though, and only Linux Server
>> style apps are supported (no GUI/desktop apps).
> I can't wait until we get the blame that Free Pascal on Linux is now
> incompatible with Delphi on Linux...
>
> Charlie
> _______________________________________________
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Re: Delphi for Linux is out

Graeme Geldenhuys-6
In reply to this post by Karoly Balogh (Charlie/SGR)
On 2017-03-23 12:15, Karoly Balogh (Charlie/SGR) wrote:
> I can't wait until we get the blame that Free Pascal on Linux is now
> incompatible with Delphi on Linux...


That crossed my mind too. God(*) help us all!



* - place with whatever name suites you.


Regards,
  Graeme

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Re: Delphi for Linux is out

Mattias Gaertner
In reply to this post by Karoly Balogh (Charlie/SGR)
On Thu, 23 Mar 2017 13:15:20 +0100 (CET)
"Karoly Balogh (Charlie/SGR)" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Thu, 23 Mar 2017, Graeme Geldenhuys wrote:
>
> > Just thought I would mention, yesterday Delphi 10.2 was released which
> > includes Linux support (I assume a cross-compiler). It is only available
> > in the Enterprise edition product line though, and only Linux Server
> > style apps are supported (no GUI/desktop apps).  
>
> I can't wait until we get the blame that Free Pascal on Linux is now
> incompatible with Delphi on Linux...

When did FPC started to run on Linux? 1999?


Mattias
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Re: Delphi for Linux is out

Michael Schnell
In reply to this post by Graeme Geldenhuys-6
On 23.03.2017 13:26, Graeme Geldenhuys wrote:
> * - place with whatever name suites you.

Anders Hejlsberg :)

-Michael
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Re: Delphi for Linux is out

Marco van de Voort
In reply to this post by Mattias Gaertner
In our previous episode, Mattias Gaertner said:
> > > in the Enterprise edition product line though, and only Linux Server
> > > style apps are supported (no GUI/desktop apps).  
> >
> > I can't wait until we get the blame that Free Pascal on Linux is now
> > incompatible with Delphi on Linux...
>
> When did FPC started to run on Linux? 1999?

It was there already in 1997. From the copyrights in the old units I think
it is rather 1995.  The old pre 2.0 Linux unit even had kernel 1.xisms in
it.

Afaik the Embarcidera Delphi Linux is ARC based btw.
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Re: Delphi for Linux is out

Michael Van Canneyt
In reply to this post by Mattias Gaertner


On Thu, 23 Mar 2017, Mattias Gaertner wrote:

> On Thu, 23 Mar 2017 13:15:20 +0100 (CET)
> "Karoly Balogh (Charlie/SGR)" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> On Thu, 23 Mar 2017, Graeme Geldenhuys wrote:
>>
>> > Just thought I would mention, yesterday Delphi 10.2 was released which
>> > includes Linux support (I assume a cross-compiler). It is only available
>> > in the Enterprise edition product line though, and only Linux Server
>> > style apps are supported (no GUI/desktop apps).
>>
>> I can't wait until we get the blame that Free Pascal on Linux is now
>> incompatible with Delphi on Linux...
>
> When did FPC started to run on Linux? 1999?

I got the first "hello world" around 1995-1996, I think,
together with Mark May. (if memory serves well)

Michael.
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Re: Delphi for Linux is out

Mattias Gaertner
On Thu, 23 Mar 2017 16:08:20 +0100 (CET)
Michael Van Canneyt <[hidden email]> wrote:

>[...]
> > When did FPC start to run on Linux? 1999?  
>
> I got the first "hello world" around 1995-1996, I think,
> together with Mark May. (if memory serves well)

Well, Delphi didn't start with a "Hello World". So that would be a
little unfair as comparison.
What about the time when FPC was able to compile itself?


Mattias
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Re: Delphi for Linux is out

Karoly Balogh (Charlie/SGR)
Hi,

On Thu, 23 Mar 2017, Mattias Gaertner wrote:

> > > When did FPC start to run on Linux? 1999?
> >
> > I got the first "hello world" around 1995-1996, I think,
> > together with Mark May. (if memory serves well)
>
> Well, Delphi didn't start with a "Hello World". So that would be a
> little unfair as comparison. What about the time when FPC was able to
> compile itself?

Well, there was Kylix anyway around 2001 or so, wasn't it? So not like
supporting Linux is a rocket science, although FPC was definitely first.

My remark was more about, I still remember, Kylix had his own LibC unit,
but because of (un)portability reasons, FPC never supported that anywhere
but on i386. And that was already a source of massive whining, when people
started to use x86_64 and other platforms, and they tried to compile their
i386-only Kylix code elsewhere with FPC, and of course FPC was stupid and
ugly for not supporting the LibC unit elsewhere.

So if this Delphi for Linux sticks around for a while, I predict the same
happening all over again (just with feature X)... And I "pray" to be wrong
on this.

Charlie
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Re: Delphi for Linux is out

Free Pascal - General mailing list
In reply to this post by Graeme Geldenhuys-6

Am 23.03.2017 13:05 schrieb "Graeme Geldenhuys" <[hidden email]>:
>
> Hi,
>
> Just thought I would mention, yesterday Delphi 10.2 was released which
> includes Linux support (I assume a cross-compiler). It is only available
> in the Enterprise edition product line though, and only Linux Server
> style apps are supported (no GUI/desktop apps).

In the end you'll just need the correct units to do GUI applications as well though one would need to do everything by hand as there'd be no VCL or FM :P

Regards,
Sven


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Re: Delphi for Linux is out

Michael Van Canneyt
In reply to this post by Mattias Gaertner


On Thu, 23 Mar 2017, Mattias Gaertner wrote:

> On Thu, 23 Mar 2017 16:08:20 +0100 (CET)
> Michael Van Canneyt <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> [...]
>> > When did FPC start to run on Linux? 1999?
>>
>> I got the first "hello world" around 1995-1996, I think,
>> together with Mark May. (if memory serves well)
>
> Well, Delphi didn't start with a "Hello World". So that would be a
> little unfair as comparison.
> What about the time when FPC was able to compile itself?

Pretty soon after that. So end of 1996, I think.
I never liked cross-compiling.

Michael.
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Re: Delphi for Linux is out

Giuliano Colla
In reply to this post by Free Pascal - General mailing list
Il 23/03/2017 17:19, Sven Barth via fpc-pascal ha scritto:
> In the end you'll just need the correct units to do GUI applications
> as well though one would need to do everything by hand as there'd be
> no VCL or FM :P

IOW with the newest Delphi for Linux you're in a worse condition than
using old Kylix!

We are still supporting a lot of old Kylix applications, and, when I'm
too lazy to bring up a VM with an old Linux supporting the Kylix IDE, I
just edit the files using Lazarus, and then compile the app using dcc
which still runs on today's distro's (provided you supply it the
required Kylix libraries). Even the app runs on today distro's, provided
you feed it with its 32 bit libraries.

Whenever possible we migrate the app to Lazarus, and then you feel like
updating a Lazarus 0.9x app to Lazarus 1.6!

Giuliano



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Re: Delphi for Linux is out

Marco van de Voort
In reply to this post by Karoly Balogh (Charlie/SGR)
In our previous episode, Karoly Balogh (Charlie/SGR) said:

>
> Well, there was Kylix anyway around 2001 or so, wasn't it? So not like
> supporting Linux is a rocket science, although FPC was definitely first.
>
> My remark was more about, I still remember, Kylix had his own LibC unit,
> but because of (un)portability reasons, FPC never supported that anywhere
> but on i386. And that was already a source of massive whining, when people
> started to use x86_64 and other platforms, and they tried to compile their
> i386-only Kylix code elsewhere with FPC, and of course FPC was stupid and
> ugly for not supporting the LibC unit elsewhere.

It didn't help that some component maintainers like Synapse stuck to the
libc format way too long.  Only in 2007-2009 when FPC on OS X got important
that changed, I still use Indy(10) that switched much earlier to this day.

The fact that it took Inprise really long to spell out that Kylix was dead
didn't help either.

Note that the Linux unit in 1.0.x had the same faults as unit libc, except
its size. (and that includes being outdated, but I guess that goes for the
2.x style *nix rtl now too, since it is 13 years old last christmas)

The BSD maintaince of 1.0.x was truly a horror compared to 2.x, as the 1.0.x
BSD rtl was more a ifdefed version of the Linux RTL than something in its
own right.

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Re: Delphi for Linux is out

Florian Klämpfl
In reply to this post by Mattias Gaertner
Am 23.03.2017 um 16:47 schrieb Mattias Gaertner:

> On Thu, 23 Mar 2017 16:08:20 +0100 (CET)
> Michael Van Canneyt <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> [...]
>>> When did FPC start to run on Linux? 1999?  
>>
>> I got the first "hello world" around 1995-1996, I think,
>> together with Mark May. (if memory serves well)
>
> Well, Delphi didn't start with a "Hello World". So that would be a
> little unfair as comparison.
> What about the time when FPC was able to compile itself?

9th august 1996 :)

Mail from Michael:

Am 09.08.1996 um 03:37 schrieb Michael Van Canneyt:

> Hello, Florian !
>
> The compiler is now fully functional.
> I've implemented the following to make it possible:
> switches:
>  -Fr for the full name of the error file
>  -Fg path to libgcc.a (needed, because we still link with c)
> environment variables :
>   PPC_ERROR_FILE
>   PPC_GCCLIB_PATH
> respectively. (I suppose it's obvious what they are for)
>
> We're now putting together a package. When it is finished, I'll send it to
> you.
>
> I think we should synchronise our versions of the compiler. I've put a list
> of changes at the end of this mail, so you can update your sources.
> before you release the next version of the compiler, I think it would be
> nice if you send me the sources, so I can try to compile them under Linux.
> This way we can always keep the DOS and Linux version synchronised.

[...]
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Re: Delphi for Linux is out

Free Pascal - General mailing list
On 23.03.2017 18:35, Florian Klämpfl wrote:

> Am 23.03.2017 um 16:47 schrieb Mattias Gaertner:
>> On Thu, 23 Mar 2017 16:08:20 +0100 (CET)
>> Michael Van Canneyt <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> [...]
>>>> When did FPC start to run on Linux? 1999?  
>>>
>>> I got the first "hello world" around 1995-1996, I think,
>>> together with Mark May. (if memory serves well)
>>
>> Well, Delphi didn't start with a "Hello World". So that would be a
>> little unfair as comparison.
>> What about the time when FPC was able to compile itself?
>
> 9th august 1996 :)
>
> Mail from Michael:
[...]
>> I think we should synchronise our versions of the compiler. I've put a list
>> of changes at the end of this mail, so you can update your sources.
>> before you release the next version of the compiler, I think it would be
>> nice if you send me the sources, so I can try to compile them under Linux.
>> This way we can always keep the DOS and Linux version synchronised.

I take it this was before a version control system was used? :P

Regards,
Sven
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Re: Delphi for Linux is out

Florian Klämpfl
Am 23.03.2017 um 19:11 schrieb Sven Barth via fpc-pascal:

> On 23.03.2017 18:35, Florian Klämpfl wrote:
>> Am 23.03.2017 um 16:47 schrieb Mattias Gaertner:
>>> On Thu, 23 Mar 2017 16:08:20 +0100 (CET)
>>> Michael Van Canneyt <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> [...]
>>>>> When did FPC start to run on Linux? 1999?  
>>>>
>>>> I got the first "hello world" around 1995-1996, I think,
>>>> together with Mark May. (if memory serves well)
>>>
>>> Well, Delphi didn't start with a "Hello World". So that would be a
>>> little unfair as comparison.
>>> What about the time when FPC was able to compile itself?
>>
>> 9th august 1996 :)
>>
>> Mail from Michael:
> [...]
>>> I think we should synchronise our versions of the compiler. I've put a list
>>> of changes at the end of this mail, so you can update your sources.
>>> before you release the next version of the compiler, I think it would be
>>> nice if you send me the sources, so I can try to compile them under Linux.
>>> This way we can always keep the DOS and Linux version synchronised.
>
> I take it this was before a version control system was used? :P

Yes, we started to use cvs end of November 1997.

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Re: Delphi for Linux is out

Zoë Peterson
In reply to this post by Marco van de Voort
On 3/23/2017 12:31 PM, Marco van de Voort wrote:
> It didn't help that some component maintainers like Synapse stuck to the
> libc format way too long.  Only in 2007-2009 when FPC on OS X got important
> that changed, I still use Indy(10) that switched much earlier to this day.

Having just removed the last vestiges of Libc.pas usage from our own
project, this is entirely on the heads of the FPC maintainers.  Whatever
the concerns regarding Libc.pas, it's usage was simple: Add "Libc" to
your uses clause, look up (extensive) function documentation and sample
code in the standard Posix man pages and StackOverflow.

The recommended FPC approach, on the other hand, is a combination of
"Use functions from the RTL, BaseUnix, or other random packages" and
"Import the relevant functions yourself", and the documentation is "Hope
some exists or that adding an fp prefix works".  Add to that, sometimes
the RTL does have the imports/record translations you need, but doesn't
bother to expose them publicly.

Free Pascal has done great things, and I absolutely appreciate all of
it, but not having a good alternative to Libc.pas or Delphi's new
Posix.*.pas APIs has definitely been an annoying pain point.

--
Zoë Peterson
Scooter Software

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Re: Delphi for Linux is out

Graeme Geldenhuys-6
In reply to this post by Free Pascal - General mailing list
On 2017-03-23 16:19, Sven Barth via fpc-pascal wrote:
> In the end you'll just need the correct units to do GUI applications

Yeah, but I don't see Embarcadero going down that route any time soon
[years if at all]. They already can't handle the amount of bug reports,
plus no native IDE for non-Windows platforms (you try and convince a
Linux developer to install Windows just to compile Linux applications).

Regards,
  Graeme

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Re: Delphi for Linux is out

Michael Van Canneyt
In reply to this post by Zoë Peterson


On Thu, 23 Mar 2017, Zoë Peterson wrote:

> On 3/23/2017 12:31 PM, Marco van de Voort wrote:
>> It didn't help that some component maintainers like Synapse stuck to the
>> libc format way too long.  Only in 2007-2009 when FPC on OS X got important
>> that changed, I still use Indy(10) that switched much earlier to this day.
>
> Having just removed the last vestiges of Libc.pas usage from our own
> project, this is entirely on the heads of the FPC maintainers.  Whatever
> the concerns regarding Libc.pas, it's usage was simple: Add "Libc" to
> your uses clause, look up (extensive) function documentation and sample
> code in the standard Posix man pages and StackOverflow.
The idea was, and is still today, that you can write applications that are
independent of libc, and talk to the kernel directly.

No-one has ever offered to maintain a Libc import unit.
It was provided only as a courtesy to Kylix devs.

That said, if someone steps up and offers to update Libc for all supported
architectures, she/he is welcome. But be warned that this will not be easy.
The structures depend highly on the CPU. Delphi supports only 2 CPUs (64-bit
and ARM). FPC slightly more...

Michael.
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